Her Last Breath

Kristy (00:00)
Welcome to Books I Make My Husband Read, a self-described hilarious and heartfelt podcast where I, Kristy, the devoted book lover, curate an unexpected reading list for my husband, Jon.

Jon (00:11)
And that's me. In each episode, we dive into lively discussions, humorous debates, and unexpected insights on all the books Kristy just has to make me read.

Kristy (00:21)
We're here to explore everything from your book club favorites to quirky hidden gems, challenging our perspectives and inviting you to join in on the fun.

Jon (00:30)
So settle in, grab your favorite beverage, and get ready for another literary adventure.

Kristy (00:45)
Hello,

listeners. Welcome back to season five, episode six of Books I Make My Husband Read. I'm your host, Kristy

Jon (00:51)
And I'm Jon her husband, the one who has to read everything she slaps in front of me.

Kristy (00:56)
That seems like a very small price to pay.

Jon (00:59)
So many prices.

Kristy (01:01)
The receipt is long. It's

like one of those C V S receipts.

Jon (01:07)
Yeah, totally. You buy two things and it's fourteen inches

Kristy (01:10)
Yes.

Jon (01:11)
long. Yeah.

Kristy (01:14)
Well, this week we are talking about Her Last Breath by Taylor Adams. I had never read anything by Taylor Adams before, but this will be the last time I say that because this book just had me in its death grip.

Jon (01:29)
Yeah, I this was our only thriller of the season, and by now most people should know that thrillers are my favorite genre. So I was very excited about this one and I crushed it. So we'll see. I crushed it. We'll see if I yes.

Kristy (01:40)
You crush it. This one's gonna be a banger.

Jon (01:45)
We'll see if I crushed the answers to these questions, but I thoroughly enjoyed it. So anyway, why'd you pick this one for me?

Kristy (01:51)
I picked this book for Jon because if you have been following along this season, you know that we intentionally focused on authors that are new to the podcast. So we started with an author that we had already read. We're gonna end the season with an author we had already read, but the five books in between were going to be new. We read Wild Dark Shore in episode two, and

it was really billed as a thriller. And we both went into the book not knowing anything except how it is being billed, the summary, all those things. And neither of us found it to be really thrilling. So I ended up actually changing what I had picked for this slot to get a real thriller in the mix.

So I was searching for something that I thought would be good for the show, something that came out this year, someone that would be a new author to definitely Jon, but maybe even to me. And I came across this one. I read the summary. I immediately felt anxious, even reading the summary, got all the tinglies, and I'm like, this is the book. And I crushed it. Like, you're gonna crush these answers. I crush this pick.

Jon (03:02)
Yeah, nice,

nice.

we did actually find Wild Dark Shore to be enjoyable and mysterious, but

Kristy (03:09)
For sure.

Jon (03:10)
I I agree that I wouldn't classify it as a thriller and it

Kristy (03:13)
Correct.

Jon (03:13)
wasn't thrilling in like a suspenseful kind of way that you would expect a thriller, yeah.

Kristy (03:17)
Yes. It was mysterious

and moody and I love the setting, but when I think of a thriller, my heart is racing. I'm anxious. I cannot flip pages fast enough because I need to know what is going on. And

Jon (03:30)
Yeah.

Kristy (03:31)
that didn't happen in Wild Dark Shore for me, but it definitely happened in this book. I think we both finished it in

Jon (03:35)
It definitely happened in this book, yeah. A hundred percent.

Kristy (03:38)
two days, if even two days.

Jon (03:41)
Yeah, I think so too. but before we get into all of our wild dark questions for this book, we want to give a quick reminder of what's coming up next in season five. Actually, we are down to our last book before our season recap.

So book seven of season five is going to be The Pirate Queen by Ariel Lawhon You may know Ariel from season one when we did The Frozen River, and you are very excited about this book.

Kristy (04:09)
Yes, this is my most anticipated book of the year, which is kind of crazy considering that Abby Jimenez, Emily St. John Mandel, Rebecca Yarros, Sarah J. Mass Ann Patchett, all released books this year. And this is my absolutely most anticipated book of the year.

I cannot wait. I'm about to start it tomorrow.

Jon (04:32)
Nice.

Kristy (04:32)
and make sure that you're following us on Instagram, TikTok, or YouTube so you never miss an episode drop or all of the other shenanigans that we are up to.

Jon (04:42)
And if you happen to be on our show page looking for this episode or any previous episodes.

Kristy (04:45)
Don't don't just happen

to be on it. Go to our show page, please.

Jon (04:50)
Scroll down after an episode and tap those five little stars. It's a free, easy way to support our show and it definitely helps other people discover our little shenanigans and it helps spread the love of books.

Kristy (05:02)
Yes.

All right. Are you ready for that spoiler free book summary?

Jon (05:06)
I think so.

So for anyone new to the show, this is the part where we talk a little bit about the book. We but we don't spoil anything, just so you get a sense of what this book is about before we get into the questions.

Hit it.

Kristy (05:18)
Tess and Allie have been best friends since childhood. They couldn't have come from more different places. Tess grew up in an abusive home, and it was Allie's family who took her in and gave her the stability she needed. That bond has held for years, even as their lives diverged.

Allie became a bold globetrotting travel influencer. closer to home, managing Allie's accounts while working her way through law school. When Allie comes back from her last stretch abroad and suggests a caving trip to reconnect, Tess reluctantly agrees.

Jon (05:50)
It's supposed to be a fun low-stakes adventure. And then they arrive at the cave, and there's a man there. Because of course there is. He's asking questions

Kristy (05:57)
It's always a man.

Jon (05:58)
that feels off. Allie being Allie doesn't back down. She's a confident, direct woman, and she pushes back. And that's when things go sideways real fast.

Kristy (06:09)
What starts as a bad encounter becomes a fight for their lives as Tess ends up trapped in a narrow crawl space hundreds of feet underground, trying to figure out how to survive. Who was that man? Why did he target them? Twenty-four hours later, a hospitalized Tess is trying her best to piece those answers together.

Jon (06:31)
Okay, so that gives you a little snippet of what this crazy book was about, and hopefully it gave you all the tingles and you keep listening. But if you do, this is

Kristy (06:38)
The tingles.

Jon (06:39)
the spoiler alert. So f from this part forward, this is where things start to get tight, dark, and real hard to breathe. If you're not caught up andor a bit claustrophobic, time to head back to the surface.

Kristy (06:53)
Ooh, was a good one.

Jon (06:55)
Thank you.

Kristy (06:58)
all

right, let's discuss what we thought about this book.

Jon (07:01)
It was awesome.

Kristy (07:03)
It was so good!

Jon (07:06)
I blew through this book. It was definitely one of those page turning books, or when it comes to

Kristy (07:12)
It was so good I can't even talk about it.

Jon (07:15)
and the setting, the characters were interesting. You could definitely tell something was a little off, but you weren't quite sure, which was part

Kristy (07:22)
Yep.

Jon (07:22)
of what kind of kept you going. And the twists at the end,

The setting of the the cave was just a really unique crime scene environment to kind of learn about and mentally

Kristy (07:34)
Creepy.

Jon (07:35)
put yourself there just added a whole different level of just like the chills.

Kristy (07:41)
Yep.

Jon (07:42)
and not because I was cold like it probably would be in a cave, but it was so good, easily

a five star read for me. So yeah.

What do you got to

add to that?

Kristy (07:52)
I felt the same way.

This book was super creepy in as far as like a creepy setting that I am

Not at all interested in exploring in my personal life. Like being in a cave sounds horrifying to me, or like caving or splunking or whatever you want to freaking call it. Like absolutely not. Not something I would ever be into. Reading it gave me all the willies, I

Jon (08:19)
Did you free Willy?

Kristy (08:22)
No, he's locked up.

Jon (08:23)
Carry on. Yeah, okay.

Kristy (08:25)
yeah, if like you said, you knew from the beginning that like something wasn't quite right. And I knew we were gonna talk about this and I wanted to talk about it with you, but you and I were like at different points in the book. So I kept texting myself my thoughts. I'd be like, chapter 14, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then and I'd be like, ask you where you are. I'm like, here's what I thought.

After you finish that chapter. And then you finished before me. And I ran in when I figured something out and like did a happy dance. But I actually

Jon (08:54)
You did. He did.

Kristy (08:56)
wasn't a hundred percent right with what was going on. Like you said about the twist, which we'll get to all those things. But yeah, it's just absolutely one of those books that I could not put this down. I wanted to keep turning the pages. I think we had plans to.

watch a show or watch a movie or something and then we're both like, No, we're gonna finish this book

Jon (09:16)
We're gonna finish the book. Yeah.

Kristy (09:18)
So, which was much more enjoyable, I'm sure. So

Jon (09:21)
All right, let's get in the meat and potatoes.

Kristy (09:23)
All right. So Tess and Allie are complete opposites. Tess is cautious and anxious while Allie is confident and takes charge. how did you experience that dynamic before things went wrong?

Jon (09:33)
I think for me, right out of the gates, the way the book starts of Tess leaving her apartment and feeling nervous and like mentally going through a checklist of did I lock the door, did I t you know, close the windows or whatever and I feel like there are definitely moments of my own life I could be like I find myself double checking or being anxious if I forgot something. And that gave me like a immediate

relatability to Tess as she's kind of going into it. But also I've normally been the kind of person who needs a little bit of a nudge to do something adventurous or out of my comfort zone. And so could relate to the dynamic between both of them. Allie definitely sounds like a person I would want to be friends with because I feel like she would

Kristy (10:17)
She's doing those things.

Yeah.

Jon (10:18)
doing those things,

be yeah, I totally want those things. I wouldn't know where to start doing those things, but like there's a part of me that wants to do those things, but I don't know that I ever have the confidence or whatever to do it on my own. And so I definitely immediately felt like a connection or relatability to these two characters. And you know, just the way that he described Allie's travel influencing life doesn't sound all that bad. And like

Kristy (10:41)
No.

Where do we sign up for that? What class

Jon (10:42)
Let's go for to where

Kristy (10:45)
was that in high school or college that we missed? I was absent that day.

Jon (10:47)
Yes. Yeah.

man. One electorate, yes. How to become a travel influencer. one on one. No, they weren't they did not.

Kristy (10:55)
Yeah. They didn't have that when we when we were. There that wasn't even like a thing. Influencer

was not a word. Not in the way it's used now. Content creator, what is that?

Jon (11:03)
Yeah. No Yes, I agreed. Yeah. We old.

anyway, so that I think it did hook me immediately and the dynamic between the two I figured was going to play a a role somehow in the book. And so what about you? How did you experience that dynamic?

Kristy (11:24)
Yeah, I think similar to you, that you really felt the vibes from Tess and like you're saying, the mental checklist she's going through, felt the caution, anxiety within her, all those things. And the exact opposite from Allie right away, like the confidence, the I got you. Don't worry about this. Everything's gonna be fine. And reassuring her. I do feel like if you are a careful reader.

Very early on, you get the sense that's there's some unreliable narration going on. Both from Allie and then from the conversation that Allie is having with the detective, which we'll talk about. But that made me question.

how they're being portrayed. And we even yeah, like you and I talked about this like outside of this podcast I I don't wanna get into it like right this second, but we talked about some of that already.

Jon (12:15)
Yes, yes indeed.

Kristy (12:16)
Yes we did.

Jon (12:19)
Phineas

Kristy (12:19)
All right, so

let's just move forward so we can we can get to that part of the conversation.

Jon (12:22)
Yeah.

Kristy (12:23)
so the moment at the cave entrance, the man is asking strange questions and Allie decides to push back. With everything that followed, what did you think of Allie's

call in that moment? Would you have done the same?

Jon (12:35)
Okay, I actually don't know that I'm

Able to really answer this question for a couple of reasons. One, a dude.

Kristy (12:43)
You're a man.

Jon (12:46)
And so I couldn't pretend to believe what that experience or f the fear mechanism that was probably triggered in a woman in that scenario.

Kristy (12:55)
Yeah.

Jon (12:55)
but that reality aside, I do think my little spider senses probably would have started tingling and

Kristy (13:02)
Yeah.

Jon (13:03)
I'm not necessarily really a confrontational person. So I would have tried to ignore. I would have tried to just be like, all right, have a nice day, dude. Peace out, Billy. And continue on. I don't know. I think it would have depended on on how strong my spider senses were tingling. Or if I just would have been like, you know what? Well, let's do this a different day and just would have left. But anyway, I think you're

much more equipped to answer this question because not only are you a a woman, you are a little bit feisty as well. And so I do see a little bit of Allie So I'm curious how you would have responded.

Kristy (13:42)
It's interesting because I would have wanted to respond like Allie, but we live in a world that things go bad when women respond like Allie. And unfortunately in this situation, they're in a remote setting. they're going into an even like more I don't know what the word is, but like more remote, more desolate

Jon (14:04)
Yeah.

Kristy (14:05)
setting, like

No one is going to be there to help them. There's no cell service.

Jon (14:09)
More isolated.

Kristy (14:10)
Yeah, isolate. Thank you. they are going to be on their own. And you don't know someone's intentions. You don't know a man's intentions. And like a real example that happened recently was like that dude when we were watching the Michigan game last weekend and like came up and squeezed up next to me and was like being stupid.

I feel like I can respond snarkily and confidently because when you're there, there was a dude we were like friendly with that was right next to us that ended up like asking the guy to back off because he like saw what was happening. we're in a public place, but if I was by myself, like I don't know that I would have reacted the same way because

If I have to walk home by myself, like all those things, like you really don't know as a woman, like you don't know what someone's intentions are. So I don't know. Like I understand Allie acting like she did, but I would have thought in that situation, I might have been like, you know what? Let's just go. I mean, part of it, like we find out that.

I mean, that was a setup, but in the moment we don't know that. When we learn that we don't

Jon (15:17)
Yeah.

Kristy (15:18)
know that.

Jon (15:18)
Yeah.

Kristy (15:19)
Alright, let's talk a little bit more about the cave. Taylor Adams stated that the cave is probably the true villain of the novel. How did the terrifying pitch black setting of the devil staircase elevate the narrative tension?

Did it trigger any secondary claustrophobia for you while reading?

Jon (15:37)
that's a really interesting point of view. I hadn't heard or read that obviously, 'cause I don't go follow up on books after I read them the way you do. But the narration about how the cave is probably the true villain

Kristy (15:49)
It was

in a interview I read

Jon (15:50)
I mean it absolutely elevated the tension. you just think about there are multiple points in the book where they're like there's only one way to go. You're like you have no other routes or avenues. Like you either have to go deeper or through this man. And like those are pretty shitty.

options.

Kristy (16:11)
Yeah.

Jon (16:12)
so I think the environment absolutely played a a huge role in the tension building of of this book, of the story. Did it trigger any claustrophobia?

Kristy (16:22)
Before you talk about that, I actually think that that's like a great point you're making. You say through this man

So you're right, because they have two options. They can go deeper and, you know, further into the cave, or they can deal with this dude who we've already decided is like a bad idea.

Jon (16:39)
Yeah.

Kristy (16:40)
But maybe a worse idea is like all the ways the cave could kill you.

Jon (16:45)
Right.

Kristy (16:46)
'Cause remember they don't plan on like going in all the way through. Like they're gonna come back out the same way.

Jon (16:52)
Yeah, they were just supposed to stay in the beginner part of

Kristy (16:55)
Right.

Jon (16:56)
of the cave, or I forget what they called it, but

Kristy (16:58)
Level one.

Jon (17:01)
Like a video game.

I I don't really know the best way to answer that. What I can say is while I was reading, I did constantly ask myself, is this something I would be interested in doing? Like, is this something I would want to try? And like because like on the on the car ride there on the way to the cave, as Allie's explaining it, I'm like, okay, yeah, I could see myself like getting behind this, like trying something totally new and out of my comfort zone with someone who's experienced and done it before.

But then they get to the cave and they talk about like all the spiders and the bugs and all like the goo and like probably from like all the feces that is from whatever. I'm like, you know what? I think I'm good.

Kristy (17:44)
Gonna say that

to me is like when you asked me if I would be interested in rock climbing when you

Jon (17:50)
Yeah.

Kristy (17:51)
wanted to go skiing, like not things I'm interested in. Not because I'm scared, but because one, I don't like snow, I don't like being cold to skiing, I don't like being dirty to rock climbing. no.

Jon (18:06)
You're an indoor

cat.

Kristy (18:08)
I am an indoor person. Like, I mean, I like things about the outdoors. Like I like sports and like I like golfing but this sounds awful to me. And in fact, I didn't even know what splunking was until I was in my 30s. so I spent a few years living in Utah, and I read an article.

About some people who were splunking caving. I don't want to offend anybody, but the book makes it very clear that it's caving. But when I read the article, it said splunking. Cause I didn't even know what that word meant. And so I'm reading this article, and these people like got stuck, and one of them ended up dying in this cave in Utah. And it showed like the path, like a graphic drawing of it. Cause obviously you they're not.

c can't see anything if they had cameras in there anyway, but the

Outline of where these people would have had to crawl through and maneuver through and how they got stuck. And then like you get into these some of these crevices and you can't turn around, but you also can't back out the same way because your body like doesn't bend back the way it did for anyway. I was like, that is fucking awful. Absolutely not. Why in the fuck would you do that? No.

No, I do not care. There's no there's no amount of money you could pay me to go do that.

Jon (19:28)
Tell me how you really feel about it.

Kristy (19:30)
Ugh so when I was reading this book, the claustrophobia was high.

When they talk about like taking a breath in and then you like shift down farther because then you have like contracted your muscles more. I just like no, that's my god. Like, no. It reminded me of that little girl that got stuck in the well, like when we were real little. Do you remember that story?

Jon (19:58)
I think so. Yeah.

Kristy (20:00)
Okay, so the other thing it reminded me of is I've actually been to Mammoth Cave and it's not like caving. It's there's like a tour that you can walk and it's fine and you're not in a small place or whatever. But they take you to this big part of a cavern, and it's I mean, it's massive. You know, there's like the stalagmites and the stalactites and like all the things, and it's really cool, but then they shut the lights off.

I mean, unless you've experienced darkness like that underground, you just cannot describe it. when they talk about in the book, like you can't see anything. Your your eyes do not adjust because there's nothing to like really adjust to. You can't see like what's up, what's down, your hand in front of your face. You don't even know if your like eyes are open. I still think about that. That how dark it was.

And I kept thinking about that through this whole book. So

Jon (20:52)
Yeah, sure.

Kristy (20:54)
did it elevate the narrative tension? A hundred percent. Whatever is higher than a hundred percent? Yes.

Jon (21:02)
It's that.

Kristy (21:03)
I'm getting sweaty thinking about it right now.

Jon (21:05)
Yeah, you're getting you're very animated even talking about it right now.

believe they call that striking a chord,

Kristy (21:12)
Ha ha.

Jon (21:12)
with the reader. So yeah, it was it was great. I'd be really curious to ask the author what sparked that setting, like what made him think about writing a book in that environment? Is he a caver? I don't know. It's just kind of interesting 'cause it feels so different than any any other like

Kristy (21:28)
Yeah.

Jon (21:28)
book I've read.

Kristy (21:29)
I actually feel like in that same interview where he said the cave is the true

Jon (21:33)
Cave's the villain.

Kristy (21:34)
villain, I think he said he's not. the answer to why that setting is everything I just fucking said. Cause I think a lot

Jon (21:40)
Yeah, yeah. It's a n

Kristy (21:41)
of people might have your like, would I want to do this? I don't know, maybe. But then I think a lot more people would have my reaction, like.

No. Full on hard stop, no.

Jon (21:53)
Yeah.

Well now that we've got that out of the way, won't ask you if you want to go splunking later.

Kristy (21:58)
you're on your own with

that. You are absolutely on your own. And and that

Jon (22:02)
all right then.

Kristy (22:03)
doesn't even account for the things you name, the spiders and all other kinds of bugs and whatever else human leftover is down there. Like, no.

So we have our two main characters, Allie and Tess, but another character in this book is the detective Layla Washington,

who I really enjoyed her. she uses a highly calculated, calm approach to questioning Tess from her hospital bed. Did you trust Tess's perspective during these interviews,

or did you pick up on clues that she was an unreliable narrator early on?

Jon (22:37)
I very much enjoyed Detective Washington's character. The little bit of like background that you get of her she's aging out of the department sort of thing. She's going through some cognitive challenges, that she calls out and like tests that she has to take for the department. And so you get like enough of her character to understand

Her experience level and the kind of questioning that she's doing is very experienced and very intentional. And so you taking that into account, she called her like a survivor a couple of times

I just thought it struck me as an a really interesting cue. and I didn't know if it was like a

tactic to make Tess feel more comfortable or

Kristy (23:21)
She doesn't call

Tess the survivor to Tess.

Jon (23:25)
In her interview she does.

Kristy (23:26)
No, she calls Tess Tess the story and it's written in third person, so it's not even written from her point of view, but as the reader is reading it, the narration says the survivor and she refers to the person

Jon (23:40)
right.

Kristy (23:41)
in the bed.

Jon (23:42)
Yeah, okay, that's right. That's right.

So were there clues? Yeah. I think I don't remember how early on it was or how late it was necessarily, but it was very clear from the opening of the book that Tess was not a skilled caver, that it was Allie who was the skilled caver. And so as Tess is beginning to lay out the story for Detective Washington, and she's talking about these very complex things that she

does like repelling down a little bit deeper or like and then she's asking how did you know to do that I just tried to mimic what Allie would do. And so it was little clues like that that I started to

Kristy (24:16)
Mm.

Jon (24:16)
pick up on and question of like, wait, I don't believe she would be able to just know that, some of these things. And so

Kristy (24:20)
Know that. Yeah.

Jon (24:24)
yeah, I don't remember how early on or where in the book that was, but it

There were definitely pretty substantial, I would say, clues or breadcrumbs, I guess is a better word for

Kristy (24:33)
Yeah.

I agree. think there were a lot of breadcrumbs. She calls her the survivor pretty early on. And one of the things that I also picked up on, again, this is really minor. This is something that look, there are people who are going to read a thriller and are not going to be looking for all these things, and they're just going to read it and enjoy it and be surprised by it. That is not me.

Jon (24:53)
Which used to be me by the way, until you until you got

me into this whole podcast thing, you know I'm the one doing all the analysis and analyzing and like searching and stuff.

Kristy (25:00)
Searching.

I like that. And in fact, I actually told myself, I'm going to do that this time. I'm just going to let it be. two chapters in, I was like, no.

Jon (25:12)
Yeah, your brain won't.

Kristy (25:14)
My brain will not allow that. That's actual facts. So I think that if you are sitting here and you've read this book and you're like, my God, I didn't know any of these things.

And you f maybe feel silly about that. Play, please don't, because that is not what I think reading is about. Like you should enjoy and consume it how you enjoy and consume it. And for me, that's like trying to figure out and piece things together and be suspicious of everything that the author is saying, because I think a lot of it is intentional. So what I'm about to say, I feel like really minor, but it struck me as an odd turn of phrase.

For the story. So when we first meet Tess in the hospital bed, we're assuming Allie is dead. And we're assuming that the little prologue we get is Tess stuck because Tess is the survivor because they call her the survivor. Now, from a detective's point of view, though, she would call her a victim.

That was the thing for me. She's calling this person the survivor. Why wouldn't she call her the victim? Because that's how they would refer to her in

Jon (26:18)
Yeah.

Kristy (26:18)
police speak. But the other thing Detective Washington says is when Tess starts talking about Allie, she says, I like her already. She doesn't say, I sounds like I would have liked her. She sounds like she was a great person. She talks about her.

As she is living. And I thought, that's kind of funny. Is Allie also alive? So I just think it's one of those like small little things. And then exactly like you, this is what one of the things you and I talked about as we were reading it. Like, how does she know how to do all these things? Like, she seems like very skilled when she didn't know shit about caving in chapter one and she forgot

Jon (26:58)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kristy (26:59)
to wear her like wool socks.

Jon (27:03)
Right. Yeah, that's man, that's really interesting. I I don't know if I would have I definitely didn't pick up on the prep past or present tense rep reference or the victim versus survivor reference. That's a very solid point

Kristy (27:15)
That was one of the things was texting myself.

Jon (27:18)
about nice. yeah, because you get in the story that like you know, the guy shoots Allie in the face and like

You just as a reader, is happening in quote real time. So it's hard to not believe what the author is saying. Like she's

Kristy (27:33)
She's dead. Yeah.

Jon (27:34)
dead, like you shot her in the face, and you don't survive that. unless you're Edward Norton in Fight Club, then for some reason you survive that.

Kristy (27:42)
We don't talk about that.

Jon (27:43)
we don't talk about that. That was good. anyway, so yeah, I don't remember the start of this question, but

Detective Washington was awesome. I love how she really stuck it to the man, quite literally at the end when she didn't call

Kristy (27:59)
The woman.

Jon (28:00)
off when she didn't call off the two detectives sitting and waiting outside the hospital to make sure that like

That didn't happen.

Kristy (28:08)
Wait, what?

Jon (28:09)
Remember the captain told her to stand down, to let her go. She was gonna be released from the hospital, to call

off the other cops who were waiting in the parking lot, and but she followed her gut and yeah, right. Yeah. So

Kristy (28:21)
Yeah, that was her lapse in memory. the way you said

I'm like so like someone snuck this is how messed up my brain is. I'm like, wait, did someone sneak into her room and do something bad to her? I've seen too many episodes of Law and Order.

Jon (28:33)
my goodness. seriously. All right, let's

go on to the next question. Detective Washington was awesome.

Kristy (28:39)
Mm.

So we've talked about this.

A little bit already or a lot of it, but I feel like Taylor Adams leaves a lot of breadcrumbs for us. What clues did you pick up

on that something wasn't quite adding up in this story?

Jon (28:54)
man, I don't know if there was one I mean there so many. I think one of the things I love about this book is that like its pacing was perfect. it was revealing just enough of

A new question that you start asking yourself, which made you re-question the questions you thought you had already answered previously.

Kristy (29:11)
Mm-hmm.

Jon (29:12)
anyway, that's part of what I love about thrillers in general. so I think a couple of the breadcrumbs, the one I wouldn't think that Tess would know how to do some of the things that she's describing in the interview.

Kristy (29:23)
Yep.

Jon (29:23)
the baby girl comment

by Jacob, so Jacob has like a whole section of the book, which I I thought was a really interesting way to tell the story too. Like it was in the first part was like Allie, the second part was Jacob and then or no, the first part was Tess and then Jacob and then Allie. And so

Kristy (29:39)
Yes.

Jon (29:40)
I thought that was also like know, it was just

It's just awesome.

I think those were probably the big breadcrumbs for me. The way that the detective was asking questions I just thought was

don't even have the right words. so I'm just gonna stop rambling and I'm gonna just ask you the question back.

Kristy (29:56)
No, I mean, like you've brought up some really key ones, and I think we've already talked about them a lot as well. The baby girl one for me was a dead giveaway that okay, he has not said who this person's name is. He's only referred to as baby girl. She doesn't like that. so there had to be something there, I felt like.

The detective saying survivor over and over. It just it became so weird. I'm like, okay, this is not right. And then already said about Detective Washington saying, I like her already. That would that was a breadcrumb to me. That was a very small one that happened in the beginning.

there's also a part in Jacob's chapters when says he'd recognize her. And he's talking about Ethan recognizing Allie, which they're dating. So obviously he would recognize her. So I thought

Jon (30:45)
Yeah.

Kristy (30:46)
that's a real weird way to phrase it. And again, I've said this many times on this podcast: nothing in literature is an accident. So

Jon (30:53)
Yeah.

Kristy (30:54)
when people don't talk,

How people normally talk, to me, it's a breadcrumb.

Jon (30:59)
Mm.

Kristy (30:59)
It means something. So I was like, okay, I don't think, and this is something else I texted myself as I was like note taking, I don't think the person that we think is Allie is Allie.

Jon (31:11)
Right. 'Cause it ain't it's not.

Kristy (31:12)
So because

it's not.

So let's move into our next question and like talk about that. So the ultimate

Jon (31:20)
Okay.

Kristy (31:21)
twist reveals

that Tess completely flipped the script, attributing Allie's heroic actions to herself while orchestrating the plot to kill Allie to hide her own severe financial embezzlement from their joint business venture. Did you see this twist coming or did it completely catch you off guard?

Jon (31:40)
It did not completely catch me off guard. I am proud of myself to in saying that. I do feel like I would followed a good number of the breadcrumbs that were laid down but right alongside that train of thought of like this isn't adding up. I don't think this is Tess's story. right alongside that, I'm like,

She was shot in the face. She's dead. So, like in my mind,

Kristy (32:03)
In the face.

Jon (32:05)
I'm internally struggling with like comprehending, that's not the right word, but coming to terms with like what's the other path. And so I the only possible path was like that she's not dead, that she wasn't really shot in the face,

So it didn't come as a total surprise when they the the reveal of when Tess joins Jacob in the cave yet and says, Is she dead or did you finish job yet or whatever? That didn't really totally surprise me. but it was just so well crafted because the way that they set up the two characters in the beginning, Allie's the confident one, Allie's the one always pushing back. And so even

Into the story when she's Don't call me baby girl, I hate that. Like, you could totally see Allie saying something like that, like coming across that. So it was just so well crafted to make you question your own reasoning of how this could possibly be true. and yeah, script was it was a fun reveal. I won't go much farther than that because I think you have more questions on.

when we get into Allie's point of view and her survival story and confronting tests about these things and so

When did you see the twist coming?

Kristy (33:13)
I don't know that I had like a moment. I couldn't, mean, it's been it's been a couple weeks now since I read it, to be candid. So I am not like pinpointing the moment. But like you, I was following the breadcrumbs. I knew something wasn't right. We talked about the fact that there's no way this novice caver, not even a caver, this novice

Jon (33:32)
Yeah.

Kristy (33:33)
person entering a cave for the first time is going to have some of the skills.

Unless she's just the luckiest fucking person on the planet to do some of the things that she did and survive. We have the detective calling her their survivor. We have the baby girl thing. We have like the other things that we've already named. I knew something wasn't right. So when I found out

Tess was telling Allie's story. I was like, yeah, baby. Yes, that's when I came

Jon (34:01)
That's when you came in and did the dance? Yeah.

Kristy (34:04)
into the room and did the dance. And it goes something like this.

Jon (34:09)
Yeah.

Kristy (34:11)
So that made me go back and rethink everything that we've already learned. So then you're like, okay, that makes sense. Allie is a skilled caver. She would have been able do that. She would have been able to like repel down while also simultaneously like wrapping it around Jacob's arm or whatever she did and like injuring,

Jon (34:28)
Yeah.

Kristy (34:29)
like all those things made sense at that point. Cause I absolutely hadn't until then. Or you were just.

Has some suspension of disbelief that this is possible. And now you're like, no, it actually was possible because Allie is a completely skilled caver. And then you realize that Allie is the one from the prologue that is still fighting for her life, We don't actually know if she's alive or if that was part of it. all those things come to light. I love when books do that because it just makes you go back and re-evaluate.

Jon (34:59)
Everything.

Kristy (34:59)
requestion,

reexamine, like, yeah, everything I have learned up until this point, I

Jon (35:04)
Yeah.

Kristy (35:04)
have to rethink I knew something wasn't right, but I was still trying to figure it out. I was still trying to believe what I'm being told to an extent.

Jon (35:15)
Yeah.

Kristy (35:15)
You know, to an e you know, you know this this person or you think this person is probably an unreliable narrator, but you're not sure how much.

I mean there was one point I'm like, did they body swap? Like that doesn't in my mind like that doesn't seem possible. there's so much photo like or IDs and things like that. Like that doesn't seem like it would happen, but who knows?

Jon (35:34)
yeah. I had that similar thought at one part of the book as well. it Allie actually in the hospital bed telling the story, but she took on Tess's name because

Kristy (35:40)
The bed. Yeah. Yep. Yes.

Jon (35:44)
Tess is dead. So like I yeah, I ha and that's when

Kristy (35:46)
Yeah.

Jon (35:47)
and Jacob's saying like he would recognize her, Ethan would recognize her. That that got me thinking down that track of like

she assumed friend's name and

Kristy (35:56)
Right.

Jon (35:56)
that she's telling the story. So anyway, yeah, that that theory traveled my brain cells.

Kristy (36:01)
Yeah. And I love that about books. I love that or I love that about stories, I should say, that a story can make you completely rethink everything you have just read for 200 plus pages.

Jon (36:13)
Yeah.

Kristy (36:13)
What you thought you knew, you didn't know. so I I don't wanna say I saw the twist coming from a mile away because I didn't know exactly what it was, but I knew something wasn't quite right. And

It didn't catch me off guard, but I was really enjoyed And I thought it was great.

Jon (36:26)
Yeah, yeah, same.

Yep. E yeah, I totally agree. Even though it didn't catch me off guard, like when it was revealed, I was like, yeah, okay, that's interesting. And it wasn't a letdown because I wasn't surprised by it. It was just like, that makes so much sense and just kept me reading. So

Kristy (36:43)
Yeah.

Jon (36:44)
anyway, yeah.

Kristy (36:45)
so some readers felt that the sheer number of twists and Tess's sudden villainous shift, and I'm gonna say villainous shift in air quotes, because we learned that's not completely true, and I'm we're gonna talk

Jon (36:55)
Yeah.

Kristy (36:55)
about that. But some felt that that sudden shift moved the story away from a straightforward survival horror. Do you think Tess's financial desperation was a strong enough motive to?

to push her to commit such a brutal, calculated betrayal.

Jon (37:13)
On its own? No. But as more of Tess's history and childhood and background is revealed to us, like how she got the chemical burns on her body that they were actually

Kristy (37:26)
Yep.

Jon (37:26)
self-inflicted and not by her mother. Like this is a sociopathic person, psychopathic person

Kristy (37:32)
S I think psychopathic. Yep.

Jon (37:35)
from child.

And so you s then start to string all those things together, much more believable that you know, even with these financial troubles, like she's her embezzlement coming to the surface, and it doesn't seem like that big of a leap that she would go to this calculated, like you said, extent to murder her best friend from childhood and do these things. So

That's my thoughts on that. What what are your what's your reaction to her quote unquote villainous shift?

Kristy (38:08)
Yeah, I mean to answer like some of what I read online about this being a just story about survival, like if you read the summary, you know that that's not true. So if you went into the novel like thinking that was going to be the story, then that is not what the story is. The story

Jon (38:24)
Yeah.

Kristy (38:25)
is about what really led them to

Jon (38:26)
Murder.

Kristy (38:27)
the cave. Yeah. Murder.

that is the story. And then the the survival of it in this cave setting and all those things are really the setting and part of the plot, but like the story is

why they're at the cave. And it's yeah, it's for murder. So you are absolutely right. if the only data point you have was that Tess tells Jacob that I need you to kill my friend because I've been embezzling from her and she's like going to find out, that seems kind of far-fetched because they've been friends since they were young. Allie's family took Tess in from her abusive home.

And she lived with them and they grew up like sisters for a long time. And she says that at multiple points in the book. But we find out, as you mentioned, that Tess actually self inflicted these wounds on herself and called child, I think called child servicers herself, or like basically set her mom up because

Jon (39:21)
up.

Kristy (39:22)
she didn't want to live in the home with her mom anymore. For whatever reason, I don't we don't really unpack that in the story.

Jon (39:27)
Yeah.

Kristy (39:28)
But

She sets up her mom to lose custody of her. I don't think her mom does, her mom doesn't do jail time, but Tess acts like the victim of that because her mom didn't do jail time. And I feel like we're supposed to extrapolate that she is disappointed that she didn't, you know, totally ruin her life. Not only set her up, but then set her to jail undeservedly,

Jon (39:50)
Yeah.

Kristy (39:50)
So you have that and then you're like, Okay, well yes, someone who's willing to

Have own mother prosecuted for things her mother did not do and willing to see her mother go to jail, it's not far fetched to think that she would have her best friend killed because she's been embezzling from her.

Jon (40:08)
Ooh. A messed up lady.

Kristy (40:10)
She's very messed up. She needs help.

So I think the real heartbreak of this book though is Allie finding out the relationship she had with Tess was smoke and mirrors, really.

Jon (40:22)
Yeah.

Kristy (40:23)
And like the friendship between the two is really the emotional core of the book, which unravels in the end. So what did you think the book was actually trying to say about that?

Jon (40:33)
I'm not sure. I'm not sure what the book was actually trying to say about their friendship. Not sure how to answer that question.

Kristy (40:39)
Isn't there a point in this book, or maybe I've just heard this in other books, 'cause again, I read a lot and sometimes these things overlap in my mind. But wasn't there a point when she says you can never really know someone?

Jon (40:50)
Probably. This seems like the kind of book that that would be said.

Kristy (40:55)
Yes, I say with

fifty one percent confidence. More like forty

Jon (40:59)
Percent confidence, yeah.

Kristy (41:02)
three percent.

Jon (41:04)
I mean, yeah, go ahead, finish your thought.

Kristy (41:06)
No, I was

gonna say like I think that that's that's like what the Yeah.

Jon (41:09)
That's the book is trying to

say. Yeah, yes. Yes.

Kristy (41:13)
Mm-hmm.

What

percent confidence was that? Yes. Sixty four.

Jon (41:20)
64. It's Allie's part of the book was so heartbreakingly tragic discovering this because she's actually in the beginning really excited to rekindle their friendship. They had been, you know, disconnected or whatever for a little while, it seemed, and so but those couple of scenes after Tess drops into the

the well, I can't think of a better way of putting it like into the water. they're just confronted down there in the dark. And then just the continued manipulation to show the map backwards. Show so she doesn't go

Kristy (41:58)
Mm.

Jon (41:58)
down the right tunnel. And just like my god. Yes. Yeah.

Kristy (42:01)
And this is after Allie knows she's been betrayed. Yes. Yep.

Jon (42:05)
and basically like Tess

It seemed as though Tess was willing to die herself to see this through. there was no way that Tess would have made that out, made it out without the help and intelligence of Allie down there in the situation that they were by going down into this drain, essentially, what I imagine

Kristy (42:25)
Yeah.

Jon (42:26)
it being like. and still trying to manipulate and control.

situation. Yeah. It was just it was just awful. anyway, so

Kristy (42:34)
that

so there's multiple points at the end of the book when we find out who Tess is we find out that Allie's the one that was stuck, that they have to, because Jacob didn't outright kill Allie, that they have to reformulate a plan. And

They try to shove in carbon monoxide and kill her that way. Allie has a gun and she actually like shoots Jacob. and then Tess would say, Let me think, let me think. And she would come up with a new plan and pivot. so she's very calculated in what she does. So I don't think that she was willing or thought she would die. I think she knew how skilled Allie was.

And like, I can't go the one way. I have to go this way. And I'm trying to kill this person. But what I'm gonna do is like trick them enough that I can get out with their help.

Jon (43:24)
I see.

That makes more sense. Yeah. that's a good point. 'Cause she did have to continue to evolve the plan

Kristy (43:31)
Yep.

Jon (43:31)
and make adjustments, Ethan showing up and Jacob getting shot and

Kristy (43:36)
But this is

this is like kind of what the core of this question is about. I think the like the thing that we're both naming is again, we watch too many cop and murder dramas. But how many shows you see or like things that you read where someone makes a decision to kill their spouse and then like they have regret or in the or they maybe they can't go through with it in the moment.

and they're not in a, you know, partnership like that that are they're really good friends. At least Allie thinks that they're really good friends. And not only does she make the decision that she's going to kill Allie, like she continues to make that decision time after time after time

Jon (44:16)
Over and over again.

Kristy (44:17)
in the book.

And comes up with new ways to try to kill her quote unquote friend. And that's

Jon (44:22)
Yeah.

Kristy (44:23)
what's like heartbreaking about it. Because like

Jon (44:25)
Yeah.

Kristy (44:25)
not only are you coming for me, but Allie's like fighting for her life every second of this book since Jacob shows up. And this person is supposed to be her friend.

Jon (44:36)
Yeah.

Kristy (44:37)
And like so

Jon (44:37)
Yeah.

Kristy (44:38)
that's what I'm saying. Like you could never really know someone because she has known this person for years. This person

Jon (44:43)
Years.

Kristy (44:43)
is managing her business and yet this person is trying to kill her over and over and over again.

Jon (44:50)
Yeah. The the end of the book when Allie realizes that she was duped basically and ran into the dead end tunnel

Kristy (44:59)
Yeah.

Jon (44:59)
and the map was flipped or whatever her leg was stuck and she had to make the like decision to break her own ankle to like I there's just no no way. No

Kristy (45:07)
Have fucking died because no, no way.

Jon (45:11)
Way.

Kristy (45:13)
And she's like sucking on the rock to get oxygen. No. Nope. I'd be dead. I would have already died. Let's be real. I wouldn't even made it that far. Like, I yeah, I have no qualms

Jon (45:15)
Just enough oxygen. Yeah. Dead. Multiple times over. Shot me in the face.

Kristy (45:29)
about that. I would have been dead.

Jon (45:34)
yeah.

Kristy (45:35)
Give me a dragon to ride all day long, but the cave would've killed me.

Jon (45:38)
Yeah, seriously. Totally. yeah.

Kristy (45:43)
All right,

final thoughts. Anything we didn't talk

about or discuss that you wanted to bring up that you enjoyed about the book that made you feel a certain way? And then of course, would you recommend her last breath to our listeners?

Jon (45:55)
mean this book had so many pieces to it and they were all I didn't feel like any of the pieces were superfluous either. Like all all of Ethan's moments within the book too and how important they were, and that she found out she was pregnant actually and what role that played in like the survival story Allie I mean was pregnant. and that it was actually like Ethan that

somehow survived and was the one who called in for help from the truck there are so many things in this book yet we weren't able to cover.

and I think that is also just a testament of like how good the story is. Hundred percent recommend really to anyone who just loves a good who done it

it was such a fun, fun story.

Kristy (46:40)
Yeah, I mean this episode, but any of our podcast episodes, we are here for 50 give or take minutes.

Jon (46:47)
Yeah.

Kristy (46:47)
There's absolutely no way we can talk about every single part of a book. sometimes major plot points, major plot points,

Jon (46:54)
Major plot points.

Kristy (46:55)
that we miss because there's just simply not enough time to talk about. And we wanna leave some, you know, meat on the phone for listeners to enjoy, but

I agree with what you're saying. I mean, there were sometimes I think I read things and you have to go, okay, it's like that Tom Cruise moment. Okay, that that person would have been dead. Tom Cruise died four times in Mission Impossible

Jon (47:15)
Four times already.

Kristy (47:17)
Four. Like, come on, stop.

If that's not funny to you anytime Jon and I watch a Tom Cruise action film, which I love, we count the number of times he would have actually died. So

Jon (47:26)
Yeah. Dead

Kristy (47:28)
but in this book, the things that happened like seem believable. Like

Jon (47:31)
Totally.

Kristy (47:32)
a doctor being able to fake a normal person who doesn't understand, I guess, r biology and how you can, I don't know, whatever he did to yeah,

Jon (47:41)
Hold your pulse and yeah.

Kristy (47:42)
to make his pulse undetectable for that.

Like short period of time, like seems like a doctor would know. I don't know. So I it seemed believable to me. all those little things and those little details I feel like matter and make a good thriller believable. Right. And

Jon (47:57)
Believable. Yeah.

Kristy (47:59)
you know I don't love stories with unreliable narrators, but I feel like

There's a spectrum to that. So I really like this when we actually find out that Tess is an unreliable narrator because she's only lying about the thing that's happening to her. It was happening to Allie.

What I don't like when I say unreliable narrator a lot of time is that this person is first person point of view telling the story, and then you find out halfway through the book that they've just been totally feeding you trash. I don't like that. I feel like that's lazy writing, in my opinion.

Jon (48:33)
Mm.

Kristy (48:33)
This is not at all that.

This is a mechanism I feel like that the author uses to tell the story in a way that draws you in and makes you want to keep reading that you you want to believe Tess's story.

Jon (48:46)
Yeah.

Kristy (48:47)
and the story is true. It just didn't happen to Tess.

Jon (48:51)
yeah. So

Kristy (48:52)
But

Jon (48:52)
good.

Kristy (48:53)
yes, absolutely recommend this to our listeners. This is your next thriller.

I listened to the I did actually like an immersive read, so I had the audio on and I was like eye reading as well with the book. way, the chapters are short. So if you are a f a person that's a fan of Freida McFadden and her short chapters, like you're also going to enjoy this one.

Jon (49:13)
that was actually something I meant to say at the beginning when I my thoughts about this book was just like the last couple of books have been character driven books and and their chapters have just been so long. They're like a hundred pages for a chapter. And this was just like, yeah, finally. Like give me a little like some shorties that I can, you know, chomp chomp.

Kristy (49:32)
I mean,

the shorties keep you turning those pages. I it. I get it.

Jon (49:36)
Absolutely. Absolutely.

so

Kristy (49:40)
Well, all right. just as a reminder that if you haven't already, please go to our show page, scroll down the episode, and tap the stars. It is a free and easy way to support our show, and it truly means the world to us. You can also find us on Instagram, TikTok, or YouTube. Or if you want to email us, we're at books I make my husbandread at gmail.com.

Jon (50:03)
And also a friend who loves thrillers. They will thank you for this one.

Kristy (50:09)
Yes, they will. And then you can thank us. I'm just kidding.

Jon (50:13)
By leaving us a five star review. Maybe

Kristy (50:15)
Yes. That is a great way to thank us. Are we coming on too strong?

Jon (50:20)
a little.

Kristy (50:21)
Alright, well I guess that's it.

Jon (50:22)
That Kristy Lee King Pritzl is another one in the books. Full

Kristy (50:27)
Did you just say my full name?

Jon (50:29)
name on the air.

Kristy (50:31)
Well, who knows? Maybe this will be the one your husband reads.

Jon (50:34)
Totally should. Not to give them any ideas though, because like you say, it's always a man.

Kristy (50:41)
That's right. Like I said, sleep with one eye open.

Alright, take care. The Bye bye.

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