The Burning Side

Kristy (00:00)
Welcome to Books I Make My Husband Read, a self-described hilarious and heartfelt podcast where I, Kristy, the devoted book lover, curate an unexpected reading list for my husband, Jon.

Jon (00:11)
And that's me. In each episode, we dive into lively discussions, humorous debates, and unexpected insights on all the books Kristy just has to make me read.

Kristy (00:21)
We're here to explore everything from your book club favorites to quirky hidden gems, challenging our perspectives and inviting you to join in on the fun.

Jon (00:30)
So settle in, grab your favorite beverage, and get ready for another literary adventure.

Kristy (00:46)
Hello listeners and welcome to season five, episode three of Books I Make My Husband Read. I'm your host, Kristy.

Jon (00:52)
And I'm your co host, Jon, the one who forgot to read the fine print in the marriage license and got suckered into reading all these books.

Kristy (01:01)
You're welcome.

Well, this week we are talking about The Burning Side by Sarah Damoff. If you follow me on Instagram, you know I absolutely love Sarah's debut novel, The Bright Years. It's been one of my favorite reads so far this year. So when I saw she had a new book coming out, it was a no-brainer for this season. Fair warning. This one is heavy. It is beautifully written, and it will make you feel things about marriage that you may or may not be ready to feel.

Jon (01:30)
Yeah, it was a pretty heavy book. Another very character driven one similar to Wild Dark Shore, I felt like. I'm sure we shall have some fairly interesting dialogue to some of these questions. but we'll get into that in a little bit.

Kristy (01:46)
I used to work with someone who said when you say the word interesting, you use it in place of what you really want to say. Like, that's interesting.

Jon (01:53)
I've heard that, yeah. Yeah. Well what do you mean?

Kristy (01:58)
Why did I pick this book for Jon? Well, as I mentioned, The Bright Year, Sarah's debut novel, is one of my favorite that I have read so far this year.

And I knew that it would be a great pick for the podcast. as you mentioned, it is a very character driven story, which I know is something you really enjoy and love. And

I thought that this writing style and character development would carry into this story when I read the summary, knowing that there were like multiple viewpoints in this story similar to her debut novel. And I'm glad I picked it because I was right and there is a lot of talk a lot to talk about here.

Jon (02:37)
well, before we get into the full dialogue of this book, then I want to re want to send out a reminder of what's coming out next for this season, the next two books for this season. So Kin by Teari Jones and Whistler by Ann Patchett.

Kristy (02:54)
Yes, and

I finished Ken. I really enjoyed it. It was on Oprah's book club list. It is on Obama's summer reading list. And it also was just a beautiful, well-crafted story. Excited to dive into that in our next episode. And then Whistler by Ann Patchett is one that I is also on Obama's reading list, ironically. That was not planned. That list came out after I picked this season five lineup. So

Just give myself a little tap on the shoulder or pat on the back there.

Jon (03:27)
Nice.

Kristy (03:28)
But anyway, Whistler is one that I had read other things by Anne Patchett. I heard positive reviews about this one. I have not read it yet, but I have from what I have heard, I think it will be a really good story and a really good episode as well.

Jon (03:45)
All right then. Well, so to keep up with the those two books upcoming and the rest of season five lineups, make sure you're following us on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, our website, booksimakemyhusbandread.com. And you'll never miss what episodes coming up. So

Kristy (04:05)
Yes, and another great way to support our show is by leaving us a review or rating us on Apple Podcasts. It really is the best free thing you can do to support us.

as long as you are not driving a car and you have not left us a review yet, hit pause now, go leave us a quick review, and then come back to the episode

So that we can continue to produce and record more shows.

Jon (04:27)
Right on.

Kristy (04:28)
And

thank you to everyone who's already left a review.

Jon (04:31)
for sure. We appreciate it.

this is now time for that spoiler-free book summary f in case those are unfamiliar with this book. This is w a little bit of what the book is about without spilling any of the beans.

Kristy (04:46)
The Burning Side opens on a single night in 2022. April and Leo's marriage is already on the edge. Leo has just told April he wants a divorce. They go to bed without resolving anything. And sometime in the middle of the night, a burner April left on catches fire and their house starts to burn down with them and their two young children, Sadie and Otto, inside.

Jon (05:08)
They thankfully make it out, but now they have nowhere to go. A marriage and free fall and no choice but to move in with April's parents, Deb and Billy. That's what everyone wants to do when they're in that scenario is go live with someone's parents. It's the house April there. It's our random parents.

Kristy (05:23)
Not someone's parents, their parents. This isn't some random parents.

Jon (05:30)
So it's that house that April actually grew up in and it's immediately clear that it holds its own complications. Billy, April's dad, is showing signs of Alzheimer's and Deb has been quietly carrying that weight on her own.

Kristy (05:45)
The story is told from three perspectives, April, Leo, and Deb, and each one gives you a different angle on the same central question. What does it actually mean to stay? The burning side is about two marriages at very different stages and what love looks like when it's falling apart and what it looks like when it has quietly, stubbornly endured.

Jon (06:06)
yeah,

there is so much in this book. Okay. But before we get in, this, ladies and gentlemen, is your spoiler alert. So if you haven't read this book yet, treat this like your smoke alarm is going off and evacuate now.

Kristy (06:26)
Okay. I didn't know if I should laugh at that. I mean it seem it seems kind of serious. A little dark.

Jon (06:31)
It could be could be a little a little serious. A

little dark.

Kristy (06:37)
All right, so let's talk about how we felt about the book. And I will go first since you went first last time.

Jon (06:43)
Okay.

Kristy (06:45)
I gave this book four stars, and there were a lot of things I loved about it, but there were some things that drove me a little nuts. I think the writing in this book is spectacular. There were so many

quotes that I wrote down from this and I reference later and I'll even talk about in this book that just have stayed with me. So

Leo specifically was a hard character for me. I felt like he was self-righteous in a way that it felt difficult to sit with throughout most of the book. He carries this moral authority that I felt was not earned, especially when you consider that, like while he calls what April had an affair, and I say that in quotes, Leo spent a ton of time in this novel emotionally checked into.

A relationship with a coworker, which we don't get to unpack. it doesn't get talked about. And I, I didn't like that. So the book really reckons with April's guilt and what April's going through, and meanwhile, doesn't address any of his things in that specific area.

I felt where the book really lived for me was in depth storyline. Like she was absolutely my favorite character and my favorite chapters to read, watching her.

selflessly love and care and carry f carry Billy's Alzheimer's diagnosis, like while quietly also holding so many other things. it was just really beautiful and it kind of wrecked me in the end.

Jon (08:27)
I agree with you on Deb's storyline. She was my favorite to read. Definitely the most complex and and interesting. There was a

hindsight to her or like a wisdom I should say there's like a wisdom to her story that can only come with through age and experience and a life lived. And we sort of see that unfold with April and Leo to a certain degree as well. I didn't quite feel the same way as you did about Leo. I did think that he was a challenging character to

I don't want to say root for, that's not the right word, but he he was a tough character to to read and l listen to. I

Kristy (09:06)
You're not going out and having a beer with him.

Jon (09:08)
don't think so. I don't think he and I would click. but he was also very like traumatized as we learn about his childhood and that sort

Kristy (09:16)
Sure. Yeah.

Jon (09:17)
of thing. And obviously that played a huge part in in his in his behavior. but

overall I did enjoy the book. It was a very similar pacing to Wild Dark Shore that we did in episode two, I felt like. And while I do very much enjoy character driven books, I also think I n

want like a little bit more

Kristy (09:43)
Come on.

Jon (09:43)
drama or connecting tissue or like something that I feel is it's building towards I don't know how to describe it, but I think that's part of the reason why I gave this one four stars because if you just

Kristy (09:56)
Mm.

Jon (09:57)
focused on like how beautifully it was written, the dynamics of the characters and the relatability of the characters in a lot of ways, which we'll talk about.

I could have maybe g given this one a five star read, but I I I think and maybe is the way the ending, but we'll get to the ending. So anyway, those are my thoughts before I s that's right, keep talking, because

Kristy (10:17)
I'm not gonna say any more, but I'm gonna keep talking.

Jon (10:20)
that's what I do here. And then we edit it out. let's move into the questions, shall we?

Kristy (10:26)
We shall.

The book opens with a house fire on the same night that Leo asks for a divorce. As an entry point into a marriage story, did that hook you immediately or did it feel a lot right out of the gate?

Jon (10:41)
It definitely hooked me right away. the fact that it happened right out of the gates had me

immediately wanting to know what led up to that event. not just the fire, how did it happen, but why do you want a divorce and all that kind of stuff. So I definitely wanted to learn more about these characters. I'm sure there's a metaphor buried in this whole house burning thing. And as

Kristy (11:04)
Mm-hmm.

Jon (11:05)
we all know about me and metaphors, we don't always dance in the same circles. So

I'm just gonna pose the question out there back to you. After you answer this question yourself, whether it hooked you immediately or was it too much out of the gate, I would love your thoughts on also on like, was there a metaphor there? I assume there is a metaphor there.

Kristy (11:27)
Yeah. I like when books open up with something devastating happening or it's not even def like but an event, I guess maybe it is the devastation that is the hook, but an event and then you kind of rewind and you know where the story is going, but then you learn how the pieces fell in place to get there.

And that's not actually what we totally get in this story. You know, the he asks for divorce, the house ends up on fire, and then we get present day and we get flashbacks into the past. So it's not exactly told that way, but we do learn right away that Leo wants divorce, their house is on fire. Now they're forced, as we already mentioned in our opening.

They're forced to go live with April's parents because they don't have a lot of other options. And

D was that a lot at first? Yeah, it was. Did I shy away from that? No, I was hooked with with all of that and wanting to sort it out, wanting to learn about it, wanting to understand it. How did they get here? What events led them to here? You know, what happened? do I think it's a metaphor? Like, absolutely. I think that.

From face value, something going up in flames is their marriage. Like their marriage is going up by flames, just like their house went up in flames. And so I think that was intentional. I also like, I don't know if this is anything, but I'm a freaking psych psycho and

The author mentions the burning side as a term for when you put out fires. So the burning side is like the side of a house or building that is either been on fire or is actively on fire in firemen's terms, fireperson terms.

So there was an original thought that if you

Focus putting the fire out from like the side that was not burning, it would help fight it faster. Now there's this more traditional take that if you actually combat the fire from like the outside directly to the burning side, it's actually a better combatant. So I thought maybe I was like, is that like part of the metaphor?

That, you know, maybe

April really wants to like

tackle this problem the problems they're having, like kind of head on and like work together and all this. And what ends up like in the end is like when they take a step back and like they're doing their own thing and they're like outside the marriage, I guess, that things help get resolved versus like only focusing on like their circle or trying to fix it only with them two together.

'Cause at first

Jon (14:31)
Okay.

Kristy (14:31)
sh she doesn't want to tell like her family and stuff.

Jon (14:34)
Right, right.

Kristy (14:35)
Maybe that I'm getting a little deep, but

Jon (14:38)
I think I understand what you I think I Yeah.

Kristy (14:38)
This how this is how my brain works.

Jon (14:43)
I know. I think I I think I understand what you're what you're alluding to. But

yes, it hooked me and led me into the rest of the narrative.

Kristy (14:55)
All right, as we mentioned, the story is told from three point of views April, Leo, and Deb's. And I think I already know some of the answer to this question because we both said that we really enjoyed Deb's storyline when we were talking about how we felt about the book. So

If it's not Deb, whose perspectives did you find yourself most in? And did any of them feel harder to access than others?

Jon (15:17)
Hmm. it's interesting. I I wonder if I would have read this book even just a handful of years ago if my answer would have been different. I feel like

Kristy (15:26)
Say more. Say more.

Jon (15:28)
well, so the person I connected with the most I think is Deb in this story and narrative. And I think that's because

as I have also gotten older and gotten a little bit more life experience and have traveled through some cloudy areas in my own like

Kristy (15:48)
With a chance of meatballs.

Jon (15:50)
yeah my own like therapy journey, I could see

Kristy (15:54)
Mm.

Jon (15:56)
some of the wisdom that Deb was throwing down and

almost finding myself at times getting frustrated with Aper and Leo, but n not hearing it or like not it not landing for them.

Kristy (16:09)
Yeah.

Jon (16:10)
but the thing about April and Leo is like you and I have had our own struggles through our fourteen years? Thirteen years of marriage?

Kristy (16:19)
We're gonna fight about this later. I'm just kidding.

Jon (16:24)
I just want to get to fifteen so I can say fifteen and just like it'll

Kristy (16:27)
Who

Jon (16:27)
always just be fifteen. but we've had our our challenges. Wait.

Kristy (16:30)
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Being

like I'm thirty for the rest of my life and getting to fifteen years of marriage and only saying fifteen years is not the same.

Jon (16:38)
Well no, like once you hit fifteen,

then you can say then you just wait, it it'll always be fifteen until it's twenty. And then so like then it just comes five year increments instead of

Kristy (16:44)
okay.

Jon (16:48)
the one year increments. anyway.

So we've had our challenges over the course of our marriage. And I could absolutely relate to a lot of the challenges with Leo and April, especially in some of our communication challenges. Like it's amazing how many things can be resolved with just some honest, clear communication with people. And not just the communication part, but like the willingness to listen to the other side of the communication

Kristy (17:12)
Absolutely.

Jon (17:12)
also, right? So like,

April and Leo, aren't doing that in any sort of like meaningful, productive way until towards the end. So

Kristy (17:21)
Yeah.

Jon (17:22)
Leo was very challenging to get into. but I also

I could sympathize with with his always having one foot kind of out the door because of his childhood and never

Coming to terms with being left alone and and f being abandoned, not like that's a actually a better word. He was completely abandoned. never really feeling loved and just always feeling guarded and always feeling like not trusting someone and letting someone in. So

Yeah, I I think I answered the bulk of this question. so what I mean, we all you already said at the top of the show that Deb was the one that resonated with you the most, so maybe you go a little bit more on that or

Kristy (18:06)
Yeah, I really enjoyed her as a character, as a spouse, as a mother figure and friend really i in in both two, like between her and Billy and like the friendship she develops, like with her as her children move into adulthood.

I liked Deb's character because when you hear how her and Billy got started and where they are now, it's just it's it's really it's just really beautiful to me. I mean, to go from they found out they were pregnant, they decide to get married, and they don't want to be married to each other. Like they're it's really hard. They're basically just cohabitating and putting up with each other.

And then like slowly they develop this like understanding and then that turns into friendship. And then like eventually they're like, I I actually love this person. And they acknowledge that. And then that really morphs into how they spend the next how many ever years, you know, of their marriage together up until like the point in the story where we join them.

And

I think there's just something really beautiful in that because as you've mentioned, like we've had ups and downs. And some of those downs have just been like wanting one of us deciding to like stay and get through it. And part of loving someone is knowing that you're going to have moments where they're a version of themselves that you don't love.

And you're a version of yourself that maybe they don't love or they don't love as much. And that's really hard. It's really hard to get through some of those times. It's really hard to see someone you love. I don't want to say turn into a completely different person because I just don't fundamentally believe that. But people shift, people evolve. We all have things that happen to us or

Change us for good or for worse. And that's just a part of marriage. And I think that's the hardest part of marriage that we both grow. And sometimes we're going to grow into people that are different than when we first met each other. And you have to continuously learn or try to fall the fall in love with that new version of that person while also falling in love with the new versions of yourself.

And then hope that other person is reciprocating that.

Jon (20:35)
Yeah. Hands down the hardest part of being not just a marriage, but any like life partnership, right? Like being with another person, another human over a substantial amount of time is just a hard just a hard thing.

Kristy (20:49)
Yeah. I mean, I mean,

think about

you have different friends from different seasons of your life.

Because you are a different person throughout that. And so to think that I'm going to partner with or marry someone and then not have that or not have, you know, a version of that, that's really difficult. Because I have friends who I have loved and adored and have been there through me, through parts of my life, but I know they wouldn't like we wouldn't be friends.

when we were kids. I have friends that I was or people I have friends that I was friends with when I was younger. I would never be friends with those people now. And it's not because I didn't love and appreciate them, but they have chosen a different path and lead a different life than I do now. And we don't align as people. And that is okay. But yeah, I saw you like

what you were just like pointing at, like, yeah, you and I probably wouldn't have been friends in high school. We did not run in the same circles.

Jon (21:58)
yeah, and I think our our conversation just now too, albeit a little off track from the book, but I think it also very much encap encasp encapulates.

I think it points out that this book

Kristy (22:10)
Encapsulates.

Jon (22:13)
encapsulates that this storyline is so relatable. There is a very human thread through all of these characters, and

Kristy (22:23)
Yeah.

Jon (22:23)
no matter what walk of life you are or where you are.

there's something that you'll be able to find relatable here in this story.

Kristy (22:31)
Yeah, we did definitely

get off track, but I think the point of what I was saying is what the beauty I found in Deb's chapters and in Deb's character is I think what the author's intention is figuring out how love endures. Like, how do you make it through those times? And then as Billy develops, you know, dementia Alzheimer's, like that.

proposes this other set of challenges for their relationship and like learning to endure through those times.

Jon (23:06)
Yeah. Every single moment in this book where Billy's having an episode and doesn't recognize her or forgets who he's talking to or I just couldn't even imagine how

Kristy (23:19)
It's heart is so heartbreaking.

Jon (23:22)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kristy (23:23)
When he thinks she's the nurse.

Jon (23:25)
Yeah, I would that's the that's the part I just had in my head too, I was gonna say, and

Kristy (23:29)
Yeah.

Jon (23:30)
that's right. Yep. that'd be so so hard. All right. Yeah.

Moving on, let's talk Yeah, that'll get us off this emotional train.

Kristy (23:30)
He's talking about his his wife. And she's right there. yeah, okay, let's move on. I'm gonna cry. Let's talk about Leo.

I did not think he was the most likable protagonist. Did you find him frustrating throughout? Did your feelings shift about him at any point in the book?

Jon (23:58)
I don't it's interesting because I don't know that I would have thought about him as a protagonist. Like he's almost to me the an antagonist of this book that has a redemption arc kind of thing. Like he is definitely

Kristy (24:08)
Ooh, interesting.

Jon (24:11)
the most challenging character to empathize and and get behind. He is very emotionally

damage from being abandoned as as a child has never learned really to trust other people.

Kristy (24:27)
Emotionally

damaged with low emotional intelligence, I would describe him as.

Jon (24:31)
Yeah.

Yeah. I would agree with that. so he w he was frustrating, but there's also like that little asterisk next to that of I kinda get it though.

Like I kinda get why he's acts the way he is or he's being frustrated the way he is as we learn and peel back the layers of his backstory and his upbringing and his like complete inability to really truly trust which in any relationship needs to be there.

And then you mix in the communication, the miscommunication piece of this and you know, he spirals in his own head. as does April. So Leo was frustrating, but I I know you have lots of thoughts on Leo, so let's grab the shovel and dig in.

Kristy (25:24)
Mm.

Yeah, I did not like his character. I felt that he was pretentious through most of the book. He was self-righteous in a way that I felt was really hard to sit with. And I hear you on his backstory, and we learn a lot. And I have I do have empathy for that. But at the end of the day, you also have to be responsible for your current actions as a person. And I think that.

That

He was not grappling with the part that he played in the

I don't wanna even say crumbling because it didn't feel like that Falling apart, like fall yeah, like crumbling just felt like

Jon (26:05)
cr I mean if I'm on Yeah, crumbling is right, like

Kristy (26:09)
yeah, I guess.

Jon (26:10)
it is I mean it wasn't one event, right? Like it it was all the things that led up to the thing. Yeah.

Kristy (26:14)
yeah. It was like a ro it was small, it was like erosion. So it was

like these small things that happen that he's not recognizing, that April's not recognizing. And it was also these small moments that are like made out to be way more than they are. But I also felt like for someone who

felt like they were abandoned because that's actually not the story we end up getting. And I realize that's what it felt like to him. So I'm not discounting his feelings, but

Jon (26:45)
Yeah.

Kristy (26:46)
He does a really bad job of being there when his wife needs him to be there. And I I just I think that he did not recognize that nearly as early as he should have, given his backstory.

Jon (27:04)
I can see that point of view.

Kristy (27:06)
And

again, just because I didn't like this character doesn't mean like I I dislike any part of the book. It's just that you read

Jon (27:14)
Right.

Kristy (27:14)
these and you're like, my gosh, dude.

What

Jon (27:16)
Yeah.

Kristy (27:17)
what I didn't like was, I guess I'm gonna bleed into the next question,

what he calls April's affair, which she kisses another guy for like a second.

Jon (27:29)
I mean it was a little more heated than that.

Kristy (27:31)
Okay, she made out with a guy.

You want we we we can call it that. But when I think of an affair, I'm not thinking about a one night stand. I'm literally thinking about like you are emotionally invested or or have a sexual relationship with someone else for a period of time.

Jon (27:51)
I think you might be in a smaller

Kristy (27:53)
Anyway, h I'm

Jon (27:54)
subset of groups in that thoughts. But yeah, keep going.

Kristy (27:57)
But I felt so there's a big emphasis from Leo's point of view on this, but it never the book never addresses what I felt like this emotionally fa affair that he's having with his coworker Kim. And

It bothered me. And I wonder if like that was intentional or how you felt about it.

Jon (28:21)
I it didn't bother it didn't bother me because it didn't feel

Kristy (28:27)
Well, hold on, let me back up. Sorry to interrupt you. Do you feel like he was too emotionally connected, invested in his relationship with Kim? Or did you not read that as part of the story?

Jon (28:41)
I acknowledged that it was there that he was confiding in someone who wasn't April

I I think what I took away from that was like that was really the precipice of what April was talking about, that he wasn't opening up to her or feeling confident enough to express his feelings to her, but he was doing that with this other person.

I don't know that it was meaningful enough to the story to unpack it any further than the author did.

Kristy (29:12)
I read it as, and again, I don't want to get into the debate of he has this

Jon (29:18)
What's an affair or not?

Kristy (29:19)
well yes, but also like can you have opposite sex friends, coworkers when you are a married person? Like I don't wanna have that debate because I don't

One, I don't have I don't think a strong opinion either way. But what I think in this story and where it bothered me is it's fine to confide in other people who aren't your spouse. That is okay. When it's not okay is when you're not having the conversation with your spouse.

And you're judging your spouse against that other person, which I felt like he was in this case. When he says things like Kim would understand or whatever. And I don't want to like put words in the author's mouth because maybe he did or didn't say that. But that's the feelings like I felt when I was reading it that he was taking away time from his spouse, from from April, from his children, when she really desperately needed him in not saying the things he needed to say.

in instead going and spending time with someone else because it felt easier, because it felt it yeah, it just felt easier for him. And he needed to do

Jon (30:24)
Yeah, I think he

Kristy (30:25)
the work at home.

Jon (30:26)
I get that. I think he felt heard with Kim. I don't think he was feeling heard with April because I don't think he knew how to talk to her. And I'm I'm projecting not projecting, I'm making some assumptions of what I remember about the book or not. But he said a couple of times that, you know he

where he grew up from and his background versus April's background, he'd also never really felt like he fit in. You know, he didn't come from money. She came from money. she had a stable family environment. He didn't have a stable family environment. So I don't know if there are other things that this Kim person had that he could maybe relate to or felt more grounded in. But again, like it's not an excuse or put you know

disagreeing with the point you s that you were saying, like people need outlets to converse that isn't their partner or their spouse or whoever it might be. I think that's human nature. I think we all kind of need that. but you can't ignore

the most the

Kristy (31:26)
Yeah.

Jon (31:26)
the theoretically the most important person to you that you chose to, you know, spend your life with. So

Kristy (31:32)
Yeah, like the idea that your spouse is your everything person is ridiculous. They can't be your lover and your best friend and your confidant and your guide and like they can't be all those different things you need in your life. One person can't be all those for you. But this is the person you are choosing to spend your life with.

and should know on some level the most intimate things about you and when there is conflict between those that is preventing one of you or both of you from

engaging in a way that you previously have or working through things, like you can't go to someone else for that. The work

Jon (32:13)
Yeah.

Kristy (32:13)
has to be done between the two of you.

Jon (32:16)
Yeah. So back to the question, I do think it was intentional by the author to keep that I'm done. Well we're here. This whole podcast.

Kristy (32:19)
He's like, I'm done with this. Lina Lina. Like, let's go back.

Jon (32:24)
Half this podcast is gonna be about the book, half the other podcast is just gonna be a little life talk.

Kristy (32:29)
I mean I kinda like it though.

Jon (32:32)
that's true. It is meaningful. it

Kristy (32:33)
I mean, I feel like that's what this book is about though.

Jon (32:36)
does. It does very much spark those conversations about what's going on in our own lives. And that's

It's great thing about books and art and things like that in general, how you relate to it. But back to the question. I do think it is intentional because I think it it seeded enough of the narrative on the dynamic between A April and Leo that needed to be said in order for them to ultimately get to the point that they got to. So

Like how many times have you told me everything in a book is intentional by the author? So I assume this was probably intentional too.

So

Kristy (33:09)
I mean I yes. There's a

there's a line from Leo in the book that says this is later in the story. But just because she's guilty doesn't mean I'm innocent. Did that feel enough of a reckoning for you or did you want more from him?

Jon (33:25)
I remember I actually bookmarked I was one of the few that I I mentally bookmarked myself. and it wasn't enough of a reckoning, but it was the first time he acknowledged his role and his part in, the s the current state of their relationship and their marriage and everything like that. And it was a glimmer of hope that like, okay, he can

inwardly because everything else about him up to that point was finger pointing and it's everyone

Kristy (33:52)
Mm-hmm.

Jon (33:53)
else's fault but mine. And I think that's probably the part that frustrated me the most with him. which is funny. There are other people in my real life that do that and frustrate the shit out of me too. that they never look inward and think that like something could be their own

Kristy (34:04)
Do what? yeah, yeah. Sorry, guy. Yes.

Jon (34:11)
They could be part of the problem. What?

Kristy (34:13)
Ha ha ha.

Jon (34:15)
anyway, so I d I'm

Kristy (34:16)
Are you talking about me?

Jon (34:20)
not I'm not getting caught on the recording when they say that. so whoops, that slipped. yes,

Kristy (34:26)
Whoops. I can't hear you. I think the audio's off.

Jon (34:31)
that's I'm losing signal. I'm in a bad part of town.

Did I want more from him? Yes, of course I wanted more from him. but I was glad that fractured his like iron curtain that he put up around himself and gave him enough space to start to actually reconcile with the reality that it w it it's never just one-sided and

Kristy (34:56)
Mm.

Jon (34:57)
the role he played was critically important also.

Why did you bookmark that line? Why did that one stick out for you?

Kristy (35:03)
Well, one, I was like, no shit, Sherlock. So to answer my own own question, it was not of a re it was not enough of a reckoning for me, but like you said, I agree that it was the start. Like, okay, finally we have gotten here.

Jon (35:18)
Finally. Yeah.

Kristy (35:20)
And I just thought that was well one I just thought was very well put that just because, you know, she's guilty doesn't mean I'm completely innocent. And that idea that we all have a part to play and

Usually in most conflicts, there's some level of guilt from both people. Now, one might be 90, might be 50, 50, one might be 90, 10, but you still have to reconcile with the part you played in whatever it is. And so you're absolutely right. He was looking for someone to blame for this problem. And he wanted it to be April because she did a thing.

That he felt was unforgivable when he forgot that he also did a bunch of things to get to that point. And I'm

Jon (36:09)
That lead point, yeah.

Kristy (36:10)
not excusing her behavior, but I am saying that in a relationship, most people have a part to play when there is some type of conflict.

Jon (36:20)
Truth. Mic drop. Preach.

Kristy (36:23)
So April says marriage begins in the middle of the plot. The idea that your partner had a whole life before you and things that you'll never really know. And sometimes, like, even if they tell you about, you just can never fully grapple with because you weren't there and they were a different person when that was happening to them too.

Well, how did that idea or like theme kind of with you?

Jon (36:47)
I love that one. That was another mental mentally noted one. i it was just

Brilliant. It was kind of a light bulb moment of like that makes so much, so much sense to me. You have these whole acts, all these chapters, ahead of like just to use you and I, from when you and I met. I mean, we we both had an entire marriage before our own and very different people back then. I actually just had a conversation with an old colleague. she was asking me what you did.

professionally these days and she's like, so does that mean your politics have changed a little bit? I'm like, Girl

I look back at that time and think about some of the shit that I said. I'm like, who was

Kristy (37:22)
Yeah.

Jon (37:23)
that person? Like who? Why? So anyway. Middle of the plot.

Kristy (37:25)
Okay, I also I also think

I also think that because I think about that too.

And I really, really think that you had to deconstruct who you thought you were supposed to be and the things that you thought you were supposed to think.

Jon (37:47)
Yeah, I was Thor.

Kristy (37:49)
Okay.

Jon (37:52)
Come on, nothing.

Kristy (37:54)
I

have things.

But I don't really think you believed those things. Not at your core.

Jon (38:04)
Yeah. I mean y not not wrong. I mean, I think a lot of us spend a lot of time in our life, just like Leo and

Kristy (38:11)
I mean I did. I think I just

figured it out earlier than you.

Jon (38:14)
Yeah, we we are projected or you know, we plant the seed on our head of who we think we're supposed to be. And it's really hard to figure out who you are and

Kristy (38:27)
Yeah.

Jon (38:28)
what you know, what you want individually and even when you

believe you're going and trying to do those things and you're acting independently and all these kind of things, like there's still a a difference of really kind of finding your own voice and accepting some of these thoughts that might be different than, you know, the narrative that I specifically like spun in my head for for a lot of years. So

I love that. I l I just I love that quote, the middle of the plot. And now like, what is this? What would we call this? Act two for you and I? Or is this are we in act three? Yeah.

Kristy (39:00)
I don't know. I think at least three.

Jon (39:04)
Probably at least three. Yeah. so how did that how did it sit with you? That marriage begins in the middle of the plot line?

Kristy (39:12)
Yeah, so even if I told if if I was able to, you know, remember and describe every single detail and every single event that happened to me, which I absolutely cannot, you still wouldn't be able to fully understand because

Times were different, I was different, the circumstances were different. you're hearing it as an person in your forties who has this life experience and I was experiencing it when I was ten or twenty or whatever.

yeah, we all bring all that into a relationship with us and then we have to reconcile it. We have to reconcile it on our own in some regard. We have to learn how to reconcile it and talk about it with the person we're with. And that's really challenging.

Jon (40:03)
Yes, indeed.

Kristy (40:03)
All right,

last quote that I'll say because I had more, but I just can't spend the whole episode just ri talking about all these quotes. But the book had so many gems. But this last one's from Deb, and she says, a life together is forged in 10,000 choices. And

I I think I just love that sentiment especially with when you think about Leo in April's marriage and you think about Deb and Billy's marriage, and it's not just this one thing, like you choose to be a partner with this person, but it's not just one thing you do that makes a marriage or a life together. It's like all these little things. And

For me, like one thing that I think is absolutely crazy cuckoo bananas bananas nowadays is how much people spend on weddings. And that is a probably a whole other podcast episode. But the wedding is not your marriage. And to spend that much money on something that is not going to actually make a difference on how you spend your life together is crazy to me. But also

Just the idea that like choosing someone to marry is the thing that makes a marriage is not true either. Because what makes a marriage is the choices you make every day as a person and individual, whether to stay or whether to go,

Whether to choose vulnerability or to not.

whether to have communication with someone. I mean, that is what really makes a marriage. It's like those tiny choices that you make every single day. And just I love that sentiment in the book. And I loved seeing that I think in both of the relationships there.

Jon (41:48)
I agree. Was there a question in there? Okay. All right. No, that's okay.

Kristy (41:50)
No. I can make a question if you want one, if you want to comment.

Jon (41:54)
No, that I mean I like that line as well. It it's true. I think pretty sure there's a Taylor Swift song or two with similar lyrics. that one's Death by a Thousand Cuts though. Never mind, it's not quite the same thing.

but it is like the yes, it is the choices that you make that forge who you are and then ultimately that forges like who you surround yourself with and that ultimately leads like who you wanna spend the bulk of this one life that we get on this planet with. So it's another gem

Kristy (42:29)
So the ending comes quickly after a lot of build up.

Did the reconciliation feel earned or did it feel anticlimactic to you?

Jon (42:39)
I think this is leaning a little bit to what I said at the top of the the episode with my initial thoughts that while I love character driven books, there's still like a through line that I want to have a sort of like culmination towards at the end or like a you know, climax of the story or whatever you might call it. So I'm gonna

Kristy (43:00)
You've said that in other

So you're like, I

Jon (43:02)
Yeah.

Kristy (43:03)
want there to be you need a plot. You want something to happen.

Jon (43:07)
Yeah, I think so. And so that fell a little flat. But that's just me and what I want out of books. And so I don't know that it's a totally a fair statement.

about this book because when you look at how this book is written and it's written so how life would unfold realistically, I think it felt true to to that and to the overall narrative of these characters. and

the epilogue chapter I think felt a little rushed, but it was also weirdly just enough to understand

Okay, they made it through, you know, basically similar to Deb and Billy. They struggled in the beginning, found a path to to balance and love in their life, and so did April and Leo. So I don't know if that fully answers your question. I personally

for me it was a little anticlimactic, but I think again that's because

in my head I want books to have like I don't know how to say it, not just be about the characters. Even though they're always always

Kristy (44:10)
Yeah.

Jon (44:10)
about the characters, but still.

Kristy (44:13)
Know that it was anticlimactic, but it did feel rushed. It did feel back to what I said when Leo has that realization. And I'm like, no shit, Sherlock. You know, we've spent 300 pages talking about this. But it felt like when we got there, I wanted there to be a little bit more. But

My question was gonna be, did you did you feel like you needed the epilogue? Because I don't think I needed it.

We talked about this already, but that we hear from characters in there that we don't hear from at all. And I just don't know that it added

Jon (44:47)
I didn't need that.

Kristy (44:48)
to the story.

Jon (44:50)
I agree with that. Yeah, we did talk about that outside of the episode here. you only get one chapter about this random character from someone's backstory and you're like, I don't know that that gave me anything more to it, so

Kristy (45:00)
and we talk like last episode we talked about, like I don't need this happy ending. And I s I stand by that. And I feel like it might have been more impactful had we not gotten the end of the story, or we hadn't gotten X amount of years later in the future. Because I think the whole point of the story is like we don't know.

Life does funny things, marriage does does funny things. It's going to have ups and downs and we don't know what's gonna happen.

Jon (45:31)
Yeah.

Kristy (45:32)
And so I don't feel like I needed it because like leaving it that I don't know what's gonna happen, like I'm gonna root for these people and that's gonna be it would have felt good enough for me. That's definitely a personal choice. So I'm sure there are people who read it and absolutely loved it. So

I get that too.

Jon (45:48)
Yeah, that's an interesting point of view. hadn't really considered not having it, but yeah, you're right. It could have had a similar impact of leaving you with a positive still with a positive feeling, but without like a clear line of sight to what that exactly meant for them. So Yeah.

Kristy (46:07)
Were you left with hope?

Jon (46:09)
Yes.

Kristy (46:10)
All right, I can't imagine you would have any 'cause we've talked for a long time already, but do you have any final thoughts on the book? And then more importantly, would you recommend the burning side to our listeners?

Jon (46:21)
Final thoughts No, we we unloaded a lot on our listeners

Kristy (46:27)
Yes.

Jon (46:27)
this episode. I would recommend this book it's a well crafted story and I think it gives people an opportunity to reflect on their own relationship or their own history or their own

relationship with their parents or their partner or their struggle with their kids if it feels overwhelming or, you know, I there's just so much realness to the to the story in this character that

I would recommend, even for the dudes

Kristy (46:54)
Especially for the dudes.

Jon (46:56)
Especially

for the dudes. Don't be Leo.

Kristy (46:59)
Well,

I mean, don't be Leo, but self-reflection, self-awareness, the idea that no relationship is perfect and it's not going to be perfect, and that just like life itself from a person's point of view, a single person's point of view, marriage is also going to have ups and downs.

I would also recommend this book. I agree with all the things that you said and I just think that Sarah Damoff's writing is very special and I'm really eager to see what she does in the future because both these first two novels have been excellent.

Jon (47:36)
Maybe she'll wanna come on and talk to us.

Kristy (47:39)
Maybe.

Jon (47:40)
Mm.

Kristy (47:40)
This

is this is our official promotion, Sarah Damoff. If you're listening, please come on our show.

Jon (47:44)
Yeah.

Kristy (47:48)
as a reminder for those of you who do did not heed my advice and pause, now is the perfect time to head over to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you are listening right now, scroll down and tap the five stars and leave us a review on our show. It really, truly, genuinely helps us. It helps other people find our show. And also if you have questions or feedback, you can always email us at books I make my husbandread at gmail.com.

Jon (48:17)
And also you could also just tell some other book lovers about the show. I'm sure you've got friends in your circle that might enjoy our banter or maybe we've covered a book that they've read.

Kristy (48:28)
Also, thank you to all the listeners. We truly appreciate how many of you there are out there. the first two episodes in season five have been our most listened to episodes yet, and we just greatly appreciate the support.

Jon (48:41)
Indeed we do. Of course it just means you have to force more books on me, but I guess I'm okay with that.

Kristy (48:47)
I mean, last episode you called it a banger, talking about metaphors and final thoughts and look at you grow.

Jon (48:57)
It was a banger.

Kristy (49:01)
I guess that's it for this one.

Jon (49:03)
it is. Whew. Wrap this one up. That's another one in the books.

Kristy (49:08)
Well, who knows, maybe this will be the one your husband reads.

Jon (49:11)
He should. This one's worth a good read. Go read this one, husband.

Kristy (49:15)
All right, take care. Bye bye.

Go get him, Agent P.

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