Atmosphere

Kristy (00:00)
Welcome to Books I Make My Husband Read, a self-described hilarious and heartfelt podcast where I, Kristy, the devoted book lover, curate an unexpected reading list for my husband, Jon.

Jon (00:10)
And that's me. Each episode we'll dive into lively discussions, humorous debates, and surprising insights on the books Kristi just has to make me read.

Kristy (00:18)
We're here to explore everything from timeless classics to quirky hidden gems, challenging our perspectives and inviting you to join in on the fun.

Jon (00:26)
Settle in, grab your favorite beverage, and get ready for another literary adventure.

Kristy (00:46)
Hello listeners and welcome to season three, episode two of Books I Make My Husband Read. I'm your host Kristy...

Jon (00:52)
And I'm your co-host Jon, the one that Kristy makes read all of these freaking books.

Kristy (00:57)
This week we'll be discussing Atmosphere by Taylor Jenkins Reid, an epic novel set against the backdrop of the 1980 space shuttle program about the extraordinary lengths we go to live and love beyond our limits.

Jon (01:09)
Yeah, for a book that I thought was going to be about space, this one was pretty heavy and hit me like a rock.

Kristy (01:15)
Gosh, I can't even talk after that. So I picked this book for Jon because he has been really loving the historical fiction novels that I have picked for him that we've covered in season one and season two. This was his first Taylor Jenkins read novel and I have absolutely loved the historical fiction novels I've read from her. So I thought this would be a winner.

Jon (01:36)
And it was, you picked a good one per ushe. And I can't wait to dive into some of these questions. But before we get into all those fun questions, we wanted to let listeners know which books Kristy's going to make me read next. So the next two in our lineup are Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea by Jessica Guerrier and Not Quite Dead Yet by Holly Jackson.

Kristy (01:56)
Woo! Yes!

I'm excited for Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea. I know I mentioned that last episode, but having reread it now since then, I'm just so, so excited to talk about it. I enjoyed it even more than I did the first time around, and having Jessica on will just be an absolute treat.

Jon (02:19)
Yep, I just recently finished it and I'm very excited to talk about that one as well.

Kristy (02:24)
Well, before we get into our book summary, we wanted to remind listeners that you can keep up with all the books that I make Jon read and the ones I make him talk about by following us on Instagram or TikTok. All the links are in the show notes.

Jon (02:36)
Yep. And finally, if you're enjoying the show, please rate and review us wherever you're listening, whether that's Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon, wherever it might be.

Kristy (02:45)
Alright, are you ready for that spoiler-free book summary? Joan Goodwin has been obsessed with the stars for as long as she can remember. Thoughtful and reserved, is content with her life as a professor of physics and astronomy at Rice University and as aunt to her precocious niece, Frances. That is until she comes across an advertisement seeking the first women scientists to join NASA's space shuttle program. Suddenly, Joan burns to be one of the few people to go to space.

Jon (03:14)
Selected from a pool of thousands of applicants in the summer of 1980, Joan begins training at Houston's Johnson Space Center alongside an exceptional group of fellow candidates. Top Gun pilot Hank Redmond and scientist John Griffin, who are kind and easygoing even when the stakes are the highest. There's also mission specialist Lydia Daines, who has worked too hard to play nice, warm-hearted Donna Fitzgerald, who is navigating her own secrets, and Vanessa Ford.

a magnetic and mysterious aeronautical engineer who can fix any engine and fly any plane.

Kristy (03:49)
As the new astronauts become unlikely friends and prepare for their first flights, Joan finds a passion and a love she never imagined. In this new light, Joan begins to question everything she thinks she knows about her place in the observable universe. Then, in December of 1984, on mission STS-LR9, everything changes in an instant.

Jon (04:11)
Indeed it does. All right then listeners, here we go. Time to abort mission now, because this story is about to break orbit.

Kristy (04:23)
Alright, let's talk about what we thought about the book. You can go first. I went first on episode one. ⁓

Jon (04:29)
Well,

I should have my thoughts prepared. As I kind of alluded to in the beginning, this book I thought was like about space, not Star Trek space, but obviously in a love story. I was just going to say May the Force be with you, but that's not what's next. Horrible. Live long and prosper. Not prosperous, just prosper. It's fine.

Kristy (04:49)
I just did the little prosperous. ⁓ prosper. ⁓

Jon (04:56)
Anywho, this book wrecked me by the end of it. It was a nice slow burn of a love story that I thought unfolded really well and like at a really good pace. I really enjoy getting to know all of the characters over the course of the book too, how each individual's like backstory and personality was unfolded a little bit more. It really built up the empathy for each character. Like you really felt like you

knew these people, you could relate to them, you felt their pain points, you understood what like their motivations were, and just made knowing how it was going to end for them all the more tragic. And it was, it's like watching the fuse of a bomb knowing that it's going to explode and you're just like watching and watching it get closer and closer. And man, when that went off, it was just like, it was

So good. I full on open cried. It was one of those moments where you're like trying to like swallow it down. You're like looking at the sky and be like, try not to cry because we were in a public space. We were sitting at the side of a pool on vacation in Florida and that didn't help. It was just like I had my sunglasses on, but if anyone looked, it was like full on sobs. I immediately like jumped into the pool afterwards to try to be like, it's the chlorine. It got in my eyes. But no, it was it was.

Kristy (06:18)
Lean

into the cry. Well, I guess we don't need to say anything else. ⁓

Jon (06:20)
Yeah, totally.

This

episode.

Kristy (06:27)
I loved it as well. mean, another one to me that Taylor Jenkins just absolutely nails and hits out of the park. I know you haven't read her before, but I feel like you would like her other catalog of historical fiction also. I also ugly cried by the pool at the end and not just like tears coming down my face, like actually, like. Also, yes, like sobbing and could not help myself and then stopped and then thought about it.

Jon (06:48)
Convulsive sobbing.

Kristy (06:56)
and it was sobbing again. It's like watching... I mean, like in real life. Like if you're watching a video of like people walking into the World Trade Center the morning of 9-11, you know how that story is going to end. Like we find out in the beginning that there are going to be people on this crew that die. We find that out right away, like first chapter prologue. And then...

Jon (07:00)
Like the countdown of a time.

Kristy (07:24)
you fast forward, sorry, rewind how many ever years back in time, I forget, just four or five years back in time. And then you get attached to these people and you know the end is bad for them and there's nothing you could do to stop it. while that makes for a really great novel and connection, it is also horrible. It was like heart wrenching.

Jon (07:47)
Yeah,

it was very heart-wrenching. I 100 % agree.

Kristy (07:50)
Let's dive into some of the questions though so that we can maybe flesh out a little bit more about our feelings and thoughts. So story alternates between the present timeline where mission STS-LR9 is experiencing disaster and then back to the start of Joan's journey with the space program. How did the balance between the two storylines create more tension for the story? See, I already feel like we've answered that one.

Jon (07:56)
Yeah.

Yeah, we have.

Check it. Yeah, I think it helps build even more empathy knowing where their ending was for all the characters. And I found myself like paying attention to all the little nuances and details and even like with Griff, who was attracted to Joan and wanted to like have a romantic relationship with her, which obviously wasn't her thing. And you just like felt.

Kristy (08:41)
Yeah.

Jon (08:41)
And he just felt horrible. Like you could see it unfold and you could see the relationship that they even built like after that. And then to know how it was going to end and to know that Joan was on earth while all this was unfolding.

Kristy (08:56)
I just on earth, she's talking.

Jon (08:58)
Talking

to them and hearing it. It was like their own nightmare. Like their very first day of training, they talked about how they had to listen to the recording of, I don't remember what mission it was, but listen to a recording of the astronauts that wound up, I think, perished or dying in that and like listening to the screaming, listening to the chaos.

Kristy (09:20)
It's when it's one of the Apollo missions where they're doing a test run and the three are stuck in like this happens at the training center. Yeah, and they get stuck in and I mean even watching that what was the movie with Ryan Gosling? First Man or whatever? I mean that was even emotional and like, you know, that's coming and I'm just watching it now. You are at NASA.

listening to the actual, I don't even know, I would be very curious if this is something that is part of the NASA training program. It would not surprise me.

Jon (09:49)
Yeah,

it wouldn't surprise me either because it would weed out really early people that could stomach that.

Kristy (09:54)
Yeah,

I mean, we talked about this before, you know, before talking here, just like some of our thoughts as we were going through the book that the focus. Yeah, composure and I think probably lack of emotion in a way in that moment. yeah, that's a good way to put it. When things like that arise, man.

Jon (10:08)
A little detachment.

Yeah,

not for me. I am not built for that.

Kristy (10:18)
I'm not saying I could do it, but I do think I could do it like more easily than you could. Like this is the thing I have to do and I have to be the person to like have a calm and steady presence and like absolutely not to this extreme. But I do know I've been in moments where I've just been like, this is what needs to happen. This is what we need to do. But you're right. Like certainly would weed out a lot of people who are like, absolutely not.

Jon (10:43)
sure because it's one of those things you don't know how you're going to be until you're in it.

Kristy (10:46)
No,

of course not. mean, even I think Joan, who said, I'm the best person to do this. Look at how hard it was for her. So speaking of some of the characters, we meet a big cast of characters, including Vanessa, Griff, Lydia and more. Did you feel attached to some of the characters more than others?

Jon (11:05)
I think maybe Griff, he's seen like a genuine kind of uh, empathetic person and I feel like I could relate to that. I feel like I'm a pretty empathetic person. I've also been shot down by women plenty of times in my life, so I could also relate to that. ⁓

Kristy (11:23)
Aww. You're just waiting for the right one.

Jon (11:25)
That's

right. I did win in the end. But all the characters just had a unique side to them that, maybe like this part I could relate to a little bit. Vanessa's rebellion or like being more of a rebel in our youth. Obviously I didn't go as far as a lot of her stories did, but I could relate to that. I feel like I was a little bit of an angry rebellious child. So there's probably some of that. Just a little bit. I'm angry and rebellious.

Kristy (11:53)
It didn't

come into, or move into your teens and twenties at all?

Jon (11:59)
Uh...⁓

That's for a different podcast episode. But what about you? Do you think you related or connected with any of characters more than another?

Kristy (12:09)
Yeah, I definitely saw myself in Lydia and specifically, why are you laughing?

Jon (12:17)
Because I'm just laughing. Keep going. That just surprises me.

Kristy (12:19)
No, don't.

Well, when I say this, you're not going to be surprised at all. Well, maybe you will. But Lydia is trying to be a lot for a lot of the book, like one of the guys because of the time period, because she feels that gives her an edge. She laughs at their jokes that are, you know, crude to people. Yeah, crude to women. And she just shrugs it off.

And she says, like, this is how I get ahead. I don't let this stuff bother me. But at the end of the day, those things matter. Like your words matter. And they specifically matter to women. And for a long time, women are just supposed to, you know, be one of the Like, yeah, this is fun. mean, this is just all in good fun. This is us joking around. Don't take things too seriously. And I was that woman at one point in my life. And I am not that woman now.

Jon (13:16)
You're Joan now.

Kristy (13:17)
And

exactly, like Joan says to Lydia, like, why do you laugh at their jokes? That just encourages them and those things aren't okay. But I also grew up in a period, I mean, Joan is older than me. I grew up in the 80s and like in the early 90s and, you know, come of Asian, I know 90s, 2000. So I had to navigate some of those things and figure out how I was going to take some of those things in a time period when I don't feel like women.

I could say, of course there were women, some women saying those things. But I chose, I guess this path. Right, right. So I'm glad I don't, I'm not Lydia in that sense anymore, but I definitely like related to her and there was like putting it, I'm like, yeah, I used to do that. I used to think like that. And I don't think...

Jon (13:54)
was not the popular.

Kristy (14:12)
one's right and one's necessarily wrong, I think that everyone has to find out what is best for them and how they're going to navigate it. I definitely now fall on the side, like in Joan's camp and how she would deal with some of those things. So I saw myself in Lydia. think for me, just talking about the large cast of characters, because it is, that was the once or one of the things in the book that...

maybe I struggled with because I wish we would have gotten more from some of these characters, like more dialogue. We definitely feel connected to them through Joan, but I think it's specifically through Joan. And I would have liked to hear a little bit more from each of them. Also, because sometimes I'd be like, which one's Griff? Which one's... What was the other guy's name even? forget. Hank. Hank, yeah. I almost said Pat. I was like, that's not at all. But I think that I would have...

I felt myself a couple of times like going to the front part of the jacket where like their names were out to like, okay, which one is this? Until I knew a little bit more into the book. All right. When did it become apparent that there was something more than friendship between Vanessa and Joan?

Jon (15:16)
Yeah, sure.

After their first interaction at the bar where Vanessa introduces herself, whatever, I think it was the next moment after that. Yeah, that moment. one where I think it was in, in classes or in session or whatever, where she came to sit by Joan again. And it was just the dialogue. It was the way that things were being maybe alluded to, or maybe it was even just like Joan's perception of.

Kristy (15:37)
yes!

Jon (15:54)
Vanessa that I was like, okay, I think they both are acknowledging that something is there, but it's just like a flint and nothing to, but it clearly like grows into something. think they're, also obviously both struggled with just like the acknowledgement of it altogether, especially in that time in the eighties when it wasn't as common or an accepted. Yeah. Thanks for.

Kristy (16:19)
I'm sure it was as common as it is now.

Jon (16:22)
True.

Good point. As accepted, that's a better word. And I just, loved how it played out. I loved, again, kind of that slow burn, but not in an annoying way. was like in a, like a very natural progression way of how two people going through the day to day together, ⁓ sharing a lot of the same experiences, hanging out with all the same people. like, it was just a really natural way that I could see a relationship developing.

and kind of sparking into what it did. So was there a particular moment for you where you're like, yeah, this is obviously, I mean, obviously it's a love story also, but.

Kristy (17:02)
Yeah, so I think I was looking for it knowing it was a love story. And then when Joan is talking about her past and having never, I think she like kisses a guy and she just was like kind of repulsed by it and didn't understand it. And I thought, oh, well, probably because you don't like kissing guys. Yeah. Was my immediately first thought. that's very early on in the book. And so pairing that with.

the opening where she's talking to Vanessa and it's like, why did it have to be Vanessa? I'm like, okay, Vanessa is like gonna be the love interest.

Jon (17:35)
Yeah.

Yeah. And I think maybe in how she was comparing herself to her sister too, which I know we'll talk about more about her. But the way that she talked about their youth and growing up, I think that was also kind of a sign that she wasn't into, she wasn't in men, she wasn't into the same things that her sister, her sister was.

Kristy (17:42)
Barbara's the worst. The worst.

What did you in general think about their love story?

Jon (17:59)
It was wonderful. It was lovely. I wish I had more like emotional, intelligent language to use to describe it. But just again, like I loved how it developed. I thought it was really natural. It was obviously very intense in when it actually like exploded into, you know, the romance and they acknowledged the feelings that they had for each other. I was really excited for them. I was also like really nervous for them too. Like there was still this behind walls and they had to sneak do this and

But I love the things that they did together. And I loved how much they respected one another. How Vanessa was like worried about telling Joan about her past and about like her drug use or alcoholism. I don't know if it was alcoholism, but like she had tried hard drugs and she was like waiting for that shoe to drop, like waiting for Joan to reject her because of those things, probably because it happened to her in the past. And I just love how Joan just embraced all of that and

Same with Vanessa, how Vanessa would be like, I love how quirky and nerdy you get about the stars or their conversations about their perception on what God means to each of them. I just loved all that dialogue between the two of them. You can just tell how strong of a relationship they were building.

Kristy (19:15)
I specifically love the scene where it is implied that NASA knows about the relationship and whoever the... The boss. officer is. Yes. Basically makes a comment that he wouldn't want anything to prevent someone because, what do they call it? Morally mis-er... Yeah, something like that. very ridiculous.

Jon (19:25)
I don't remember what

morally misguided.

Morally questionable.

Kristy (19:45)
Or

something. And Joan essentially tries to break it off with Vanessa and Vanessa leaves but then calls her from down the street and says, you don't get to make a decision for me. Like I am part of this relationship and my answer is no. My answer is absolutely no. It doesn't matter to me what we have to give up or risk. Like we're doing this.

Jon (20:09)
That's a very Notebook moment for me. I can just picture it in a movie where she's like, it's pouring rain. She's in the payphone looking up at the window.

Kristy (20:19)
She's

in the window looking at her.

Jon (20:22)
⁓

So I could definitely picture that in my head when I was reading that.

Kristy (20:27)
I'm not over

until I say it's over. Something like that. That was something that was close from The Notebook.

Jon (20:31)
Yeah, I actually that really annoyed me about Joan her reaction to that. I understood why she, what is this saying? If you love something set it free or whatever that is, but that wasn't setting free. That was pushing away. was, that was a ⁓ fear driving that for her. So I love that she stood up for

Kristy (20:45)
That's it. Yeah, I think that's

I think it was Joan making a decision for Vanessa because she says, if someone finds out about a relationship, you're not going to be able to go into space. You're not going be able to live your dream and do this. And Vanessa's, you don't get to make that decision for me. I get to make that decision for me.

Jon (21:14)
Yeah, so I understood her motivations, but slightly misplaced.

Kristy (21:18)
Within the novel, there is plenty of rich detail about the NASA space program. Did you feel you learned anything new about space travel while reading the novel?

Jon (21:26)
Yes. I think it painted a deeper picture of how challenging those roles and jobs really are. Like they're obviously for the general public, it's a very glorified position. It's a very like respected position to be. But I think this book really highlighted a lot of the

emotional stress that goes along with being an astronaut, not just like the smarts and the astrophysics and like how you have to think quickly on your feet, but how emotionally draining that line of work is. So, I mean, I didn't really know anything about the NASA space program, the inner working. So I am not an astrophysicist. I do not even play one on TV. ⁓ Or on a podcast. ⁓ So

Kristy (22:08)
You are not an astrophysicist?!

Or...

Jon (22:18)
Everything I learned about that, was just like, that's fascinating. And I think it just gave me even more respect for the characters as she was writing them. What about you?

Kristy (22:29)
I'm sure I learned plenty. mean, they talk about the stars and...

Jon (22:33)
Yeah, like all

the constellations and things like that. was, yeah, from Joan's point of view, that was really interesting.

Kristy (22:38)
And the one you actually said the other day that the stars are... When we see the stars, we're seeing...

Jon (22:44)
What did I say the other day?

Yeah,

it's like you were seeing history because it takes 500 light years or whatever for that star the way that is shining to reach our right.

Kristy (22:58)
That star happened however long ago and it's just finally... That is stuff I can't wrap my mind around. Like I know time is not linear and like a light year is a length of time and also a distance or something. I can't wrap my mind around that. I can't wrap my mind around that.

Jon (23:21)
thing that I see in the sky is started 500 years ago and I'm and I'm seeing it.

Kristy (23:26)
or that it takes how long to get to another like years or hundreds of years to I don't know I just like can't remember my mind around all those things saying but what I wanted to say was I'm so glad that Taylor Jenkins Reid clears up for us

that most of what being an astronaut is, is not just flying to space. So if you flew to space, say, I don't know, in an Amazon vehicle recently, you're not an astronaut.

Jon (23:58)
Mic drop moment. Yeah, for reals, there is, I think that's a great way to put it. Like there's just, there's so much that goes into it.

Kristy (24:08)
No offense to the people who did, great. That's wonderful.

Jon (24:12)
thing

to go. Yeah, yeah. And all the people behind the scenes figuring out the heat shields and every component about that. is just mind boggling to me that when you really think about like how it started and we had no idea what the atmosphere was like or what the burn rate would be like or what it'd be like reentering the atmosphere. Yeah.

Kristy (24:14)
one's figuring out space.

Program.

atmosphere.

Jon (24:38)
That was

on purpose. yeah, everything about the NASA, like how she portrayed NASA and how she portrayed what goes into being an astronaut and all the different roles within that too is just fascinating.

Kristy (24:51)
just thought atmosphere kind of is like a double entendre because it's the atmosphere and the actual atmosphere with the definition of space. But it's like the climate of atmosphere that she's navigating as a woman dating another woman.

Jon (25:09)
⁓ I see her

like her her bubble and her atmosphere around her not just the globe's atmosphere. Okay, that's interesting.

Kristy (25:20)
I

have no idea if that's intentional.

Jon (25:23)
We'll pretend

it is. On this podcast, we have that ability.

Kristy (25:27)
So another big focus of the novel is the love that Joan has for her niece, Frances. Joan's sister, Barbara, is selfish and not emotionally available to Frances. So a lot of the heavy hitting goes to Joan. How would you have handled the situation with her sister if you were Joan? I can't even say it with a straight face, because I want my answer. I would have punched her in her face. Bam, Barbara.

Jon (25:42)
⁓ jeez.

Square in the nose.

I'm just speechless. She was awful. She just grinded me.

Kristy (25:59)
Yeah, there was like moments in the book where I wanted to have empathy for Barbara that I know it was difficult, but also growing up at in the same time period, going to school, getting pregnant at a very young age, child raising a child. She did not want, she made a choice.

Jon (26:18)
that she clearly did not want.

Kristy (26:23)
that child did not ask to be born. But as the story goes on and you just learn more and you peel back the layers and you learn how selfish she is and you learn how disconnected she is from her daughter and doesn't try and blames Joan and I don't get like, Joan's essentially raising her, raising Frances and Barbara's really like a babysitter in a lot of the situation. Man, it was difficult. Like I could not stand her but...

Jon (26:52)
same. Like I think most of my empathy was placed on Frances. ⁓ well yeah, that's full other. But yeah, her she was Barbara, she was so manipulative. She would you say like borderline narcissistic even where it's like

Kristy (27:05)
I

wonder why you would say she's manipulative.

Jon (27:08)
Because she was able to, she knew how to manipulate Joan to get Joan to do all the things that she didn't want to do. And, and Joan being who she is, Joan, she also put her empathy into Frances and would do all those things. And you know, in a big way, like she was a huge enabler of Barbara's behavior for years and years.

Kristy (27:32)
That's what I wonder if Barbara was really manipulator or she was just like, I always get my way. Everyone has done everything for me and specifically Joan. And she was just abusing that. And Joan, like you said, is the enabler. So the reason that Barbara is one behaving a lot of the way that she is, is because Joan is allowing it to happen. No more about Barbara.

Jon (27:57)
Right.

no, that pretty much covers it.

Kristy (28:02)
Okay.

While Joan does get into venture in space, she's sick for most of it and quickly learns that she prefers to stay on Earth and help with the space program from there. Why was staying Earth bound a better fit for Joan?

Jon (28:17)
I'm not really sure how to answer that one. To be honest, I besides like being sick the whole time and not getting really like enjoying the experience, even though that was like a dream from childhood to see Earth from the other side, they'd be part of the stars and experience all that. I don't know. I'm not really sure how to answer that. So what do you how would you answer that question?

Kristy (28:42)
I think what it's supposed to represent is like the Earth is stable. And as astronauts are going in and they're exploring and they're depending on Houston to be grounded, be their stable, their stability.

And so I just wonder if it was more of a representation of that. so Joan getting sick and her needing to be on Earth was necessary for that. And maybe also why she wasn't on the mission, because head dude had said he wanted her to go back into space.

Jon (29:20)
Yeah,

guess hearing you say that, makes a lot of sense. Like I do think she saw herself as a stable figure just in general. For Frances for, you know, really before the space program, she talked about just like she likes her simple little life and just doing her professorship. And so I think that probably just resonates with her. That's a great point. I wouldn't have thought of that. Could you imagine getting sick in space, though, and having like your vomit just like floating around?

Kristy (29:40)
Yeah.

⁓ my gosh. Okay. As someone who was like a neat freak in a lot of ways and likes a tidy home. And I immediately thought about that. I was like, how do you like hold out a bag and you're like trying to catch it.

Jon (30:02)
That's it. That's how I picture it. Like, I don't know how else you do it.

Kristy (30:05)
But then I thought, it'd be way easier to clean up puking space, right?

Jon (30:10)
Sure, because it won't really stay anything. ⁓

Kristy (30:12)
Don't like go

everywhere, right? It'll go float and you can kind of... I don't know. Very unsanitary.

Jon (30:15)
and like little beads or chunks. But I also think it

does. But also in the end of the book when Vanessa mentioned something about the blood from one of the victims and she's just floating in front of her mask and she has to just like take a napkin and just like dab it to soak it up. I imagine that. It was, yes, you could.

Kristy (30:36)
The imagery was phenomenal.

Jon (30:41)
Yeah, the writing was fantastic. You could absolutely just place yourself right there and understand what was going on around.

Kristy (30:48)
NASA eventually gets the wind of the romance between Joan and Vanessa, and Joan ends up becoming guardian of Frances. As a result of the two events, Joan breaks up with Vanessa in order to save Vanessa's career, but Vanessa refuses to let Joan leave her behind. What did you think as those scenes were unfolding?

Jon (31:08)
I cheered for Frances and for Joan when that all unfolded. was like, finally, like as that was unfolding when she got sent off to boarding school and I just knew when she was talking about Thanksgiving that she wasn't going to be surrounded by a bunch of friends and she was going to be there left alone. And I was getting so angry and I was like, Joan, please just push.

Kristy (31:27)
Frances, by the way, you haven't read the book.

Jon (31:34)
This has to be the breaking point for you to take action more than you have up to this point and confront her. And she did. And I was like, "Fuck yeah, go get that kid!" And I loved how receptive Frances was. just like that, like that was the starting point of my crying. I think was like that whole scene unfolding and how heartfelt it was, how wonderful it was and how like it was going to be challenging as shit for Joan.

but she just knew it was the right thing to do and went and did it. Barb can go buzz off somewhere else.

Kristy (32:12)
What really does it for me is when Barb says that her new husband didn't want kids. Right. you married him and you have a kid. Yeah. ⁓ Make it make sense. And so back to kind of what we were saying earlier about Barbara and making a choice and all those things and having people do things for not being able to figure it out.

Jon (32:28)
Strangle her!

Kristy (32:40)
She doesn't understand Frances. She doesn't know how to connect with Frances. All those things. And Joan is also over here saying, I don't know how to do all these things. I don't know how to be a parent, a full-time parent. I don't know how this is going to affect my life, but I care about this person. I'm just going to fucking figure it out. And so, yeah, when she went and got her from school, it like, finally. I felt like you knew the story was leading there. But man, when Barbara said that, Barb said that about...

The husband, the new husband, I don't even, I don't remember if we were to learn his name, but we do learn his name, but I don't remember his name. I was so pissed. I was so pissed.

Jon (33:17)
Yeah, for real.

That whole exchange between the two of them when Joan burst into her house and they had it. It's like, you do this thing, you write this note, you're giving this up. And it's just like, finally. And I really didn't know if Barb would. I genuinely didn't know if Barb would because she is so selfish. Yeah. If she would actually go so far as to... Yeah. custody. Yeah, that's the word.

Kristy (33:40)
relinquish.

Yeah, and she's pretty brutal in her conversation with Joan and how could you possibly, because she doesn't know that Joan is gay and how can you possibly know what I'm going through? You've never been in love. You've never even kissed a man. And all these points. And what's just so, so sad about this is that their sisters and Barb

Barbara knows nothing about her sister. Absolutely nothing.

Jon (34:12)
You

know, Barbara, Barbara.

Kristy (34:15)
Barbara Barbara Barbara

Goodwin. ⁓

Jon (34:19)
You

Kristy (34:21)
Yeah, I mean, I think that's a little heartbreaking. meant for the just between the sisters that she's accusing her of this because she just has no idea that Joan has been in love and is in a stable relationship and has actually the things that Barbara really wants and actually doesn't have.

Jon (34:25)
is a lot harder.

Yeah, she has no idea what it takes to have that.

Kristy (34:51)
All of this eventually leads to the mission where Vanessa is in space and several crew members die. What does it say about Vanessa that she wouldn't leave Lydia behind?

Jon (35:01)
that she's selfless, knowing how challenging Lydia was through their entire program training and everything, and knowing that they still didn't even really get along, I don't think up to that point of that mission. And for her to make that choice, just, it was very humbling, heroic. I don't have the right words, but it was.

Kristy (35:25)
I think what you said is selfless because what happens is Vanessa doesn't even know if she's going to make it back. But what she does know is that if she wastes any more time trying to screw the nuts in, is what it is, Lydia is 100 % going to die. She doesn't have that long. She doesn't have enough time to live. And Vanessa makes the decision that if there's no guarantee I'm going to live, but doing this faster,

is possibly gonna save us both. I'm just gonna save us, I'm gonna try to save us both. And I can already tell I'm about to, like I'm already thinking about I know, and I have things like, yeah. I'm feeling a little sweaty right now. Because this is the point in the book where it's just so brutal. Listening to all these things.

Jon (36:13)
Seriously, very sweaty.

the dialogue

and they're literally a world apart.

Kristy (36:28)
What think is interesting is that NASA essentially, going back to what we said before, you have to learn to follow orders because if you don't follow orders to the letter, people can die. And actually that's what ends up happening. And so you have a bunch of people make decisions that cause this to happen, but then in order to save someone else,

Jon (36:45)
Exactly what happened, yeah.

Kristy (36:56)
They're still not following orders and she probably loses her job, which we don't find out because we don't get the epilogue, which we'll talk about. But it's really interesting because you see both sides of it. You see the need for Vanessa to listen to like, have like, we have to try to save you. The whole point of this mission is to bring people home and as many people as we can.

and it's better for one person to live than no people to live.

Jon (37:29)
That was NASA's point and I think Jones' position, too.

Kristy (37:32)
Yeah, well, and Joan has a vested interest in bringing Vanessa home over Lydia. So you almost see it actually reminds me of A Few Good Men. Hold on, stay with me for a second. Jack Nicholson and one of my favorite monologues of all time says,

Jon (37:35)
Vested interest.

Sure.

Kristy (37:58)
that we have the privilege to weep for Santiago and that his death while tragic probably saves lives. And that Jack Nicholson, Lieutenant Jessup's existence while grotesque and incomprehensible to us saves lives. And so that following order mentality that most people can't wrap their head around because we don't live in a world like that.

NASA is training, like you have to follow orders. You have to do things exactly when you don't, people die. And so we see them make a decision that doesn't follow that letter of the law. And it's hard because you're like, no, you need to follow the orders because this is what is the best chance. This is what tells us we have the best chance of survival. And it worked out this time.

Jon (38:40)
I'm

Kristy (38:56)
It works out, but it's a book. It doesn't always work out though.

Jon (39:02)
doesn't always work.

True that.

the ending. Okay then.

Kristy (39:08)
Let's talk about the ending.

Did you think Vanessa had died trying to come back to Earth? What was your reaction when it's revealed she survived and successfully brought Lydia back? I'll tell you your reaction.

Jon (39:23)
Fetal position.

Kristy (39:27)
wait, no, that was my reaction. For

real, I'm not kidding. Shoulder shaking, bent over sobbing on a... I was gonna say a lawn chair. I'm like, it's not a lawn chair. I'll chase...

Jon (39:37)
Lawn chair?

Chaise, yeah, a at the pool.

Kristy (39:44)
In my bathing suit, I slathered in sunscreen.

Jon (39:48)
I

actually did not think she would survive. And honestly, my initial reaction at the very end when it was revealed that she did survive kind of made me angry. I didn't like it. No, I mean, it was

Kristy (40:03)
because it was unrealistic. You

wanted her to die?

Jon (40:09)
didn't want that to happen.

Kristy (40:11)
I'd love this be a lesson to you.

Jon (40:13)
I just felt like, okay, maybe it was a little bit of this subconsciously, but it was like, you just wrecked me emotionally and you fucking lived.

Kristy (40:24)
Like you thought it'd been a better story if she dies.

Jon (40:27)
Well, just maybe I don't know if better story is right, but I was just annoyed. think let me grieve now. Like, don't know. It was clearly a wildly mix of emotions, but I have since changed my stance on that. Like I understand why Taylor Jenkins Reid wrote in her survival. At least I think I do. But in that moment when I'm like,

bawling my eyes out and grieving and like just starting to come down from that wreckage. She like pulls this pin of like the voice comes back on the radio or whatever it was. I was like, and then it ended and it just ended. And then was like, what the fuck!?

Anyway, so that was my mixed bag of reactions. We know you were in the fetal position. So you want to talk a little bit about why you think she wrote her to survive?

Kristy (41:33)
I think it's a love story and it'd been terrible if she would have died. I mean, it was terrible when I felt all the emotions that you're describing. Well, all the emotions you're describing. I felt those. When she cracked, I did think she was gonna be, I thought she was gonna die. I thought it was going to end and maybe, I don't know, I wasn't sure at this point, I was listening to it, I wasn't reading it. And so I wasn't sure where I was.

Jon (41:37)
It was.

Oh, sure.

Kristy (42:03)
And so I thought maybe it's just gonna be her and Frances and...

Jon (42:07)
That's

what I thought. I thought by her getting Frances full time and now being a mother to Frances, a focus and that's going to be her journey now.

Kristy (42:17)
So I thought Vanessa was going to die. And when that voice cracks, I lost it. I fucking lost it. I'm not kidding. I could not stop crying. I could not stop crying. This is probably a book I've cried the most on. Because I definitely have cried in plenty of books. All the time. Happy books, tragic books.

Jon (42:32)
It was an emotional wreckage.

I think I would agree with that.

Kristy (42:46)
But this was more than just tears running down my cheek. felt emotionally connected to these characters.

Jon (42:50)
This was visceral.

Damn, you know what it's like? Sorry. It was like fucking Endgame when Iron Man

Kristy (42:59)
Gosh,

but the problem with endgame is I cried when Tony Stark dies. I'm so sorry if that's a spoiler to some people who are going for that. Well, I mean, there so many movies and books out there that's not fair to say that I saw someone say that recently and I was like, that's totally fair. It's totally fair that a book came out 10 or 15 years ago and you like don't know. I mean, I read Harry Potter forever and I had no idea Dumbledore was going to die. And someone was like, how did you miss that?

Jon (43:06)
Way too late.

Sure, that's fair.

Kristy (43:28)
for how long in your life? I'm like, I don't know, it meant nothing to me.

Jon (43:31)
So that's

two spoilers. ⁓

Kristy (43:34)
Sorry. But yeah, Tony Stark dies. Is he dead? I don't know. We'll find out.

Jon (43:40)
But

it was that this old reaction like you're so connected. You're so invested with these people their whole journey. Yes, exactly.

Kristy (43:46)
I felt like I went to a funeral. I

spent the rest of the day feeling like we went to a funeral after seeing that movie at 7 a.m. on its release date.

Jon (43:53)
Yeah.

That's how I with this book too. Yeah. But I think that's like, that's a correlation with this book. I felt like it was a real funeral that we went to. We lost these people. This person. People. It was people. It was people. Yeah. Because even though Vanessa made it like Griff and Hank and are still dead.

Kristy (44:11)
Yeah, it's still tragic. I mean, there's going to be so much grief wrapped up in that in their relationship and moving forward for a lot of those people. Like even those people who maybe like weren't direct, yeah, Donna and I forget the other woman's name that like Hank and.

Jon (44:33)
Yeah, their wives. Oh, yeah. And like when they were saying their lives, their wives are listening. I know. I just couldn't I know.

Kristy (44:39)
Gosh.

It was awful. It was awful. Awful. Don't read this book.

Jon (44:51)
I mean, assuming if they're listening this far, they've hopefully, they've probably already read it. But anyways.

Kristy (44:57)
Okay, so that's the ending, but let's talk about that being the ending. What did you think about how it stopped and what do you feel like is next for Joan and Vanessa? Would you have liked there to have been an epilogue? Would you have liked to hear more about what happened?

Jon (45:17)
I was listening to the book also, similar to what you're saying, like I have no context of where I am in the story. And then all of sudden it's like, thank you for listening. This is a production. I'm like, what? Are you fucking kidding me?! You're just going to end with that?! I was so mad, but also like still really sad. That's exactly what I sounded like in my head. My gut reaction is yes, I would have wanted an epilogue, but I.

I think there was just too much to cover there in the aftermath of an event like that, that it wouldn't have been an epilogue, it would have been like another half of book to understand and and have me feel like all those ends were tied up to some degree. Like I just think that would have been near impossible. And I think there would be major consequences, major consequences of their relationship now being exposed of

Vanessa not following orders and what happens with Frances and like, yeah, I just think there's way too much for it. So I think you feel similar. Do you have like?

Kristy (46:26)
feel very similar. At first, I literally was like, where's my fucking epilogue? You gotta be shitting me. But after I wiped the tears away, calmed down, had a virgin daiquiri, I thought about it and I think like to your point, all the things that you're saying, it would have been so much. There was so much unpacked.

Jon (46:35)
jumped in the

Kristy (46:55)
Vanessa is probably going to lose her job. Like she disobeyed orders and they have those things for a reason. She made a choice. relationship, given their dialogue on the radio, the relationship is 100 % exposed, cannot be like, don't ask, don't tell, which was ineffective this period in time.

that would not have been acceptable. So probably both of them would have lost their jobs. Maybe that affects her ability to go back and be a professor again. So I think we get this beautiful, beautiful love story. And to say that their love story would have been without hardships going forward, being a gay couple in the 80s, I just feel like it would have been an anachronistic to the period. ⁓

I don't know this, but I would think that Taylor Jenkins Reid just didn't want to do that. She wanted to leave it where it's still precious and it's still wonderful. And we are horribly sad, but we get to walk away knowing they are together, whatever that means. And whatever it means like for Frances and that relationship. So I just feel like there have been so much there and it wouldn't have been easy for either of them that.

the epilogue could have been 100 pages and probably still not scratched surface.

Jon (48:20)
Yeah,

I think it made for a better book despite how pissed off I was about how it ended.

Kristy (48:26)
So if given the opportunity, would you personally want to go to space? Why or why not?

Jon (48:31)
Well, yeah, when it was just this glorified idea of just like, just shoot up there and look at the earth.

Kristy (48:37)
When has it ever

been a glorified idea that you just shoot up there? You're watching too much Phineas and Ferb. They go to space all the time. ⁓

Jon (48:43)
sorry.

think the idea of going to space is wildly compelling. And I would love it. Like, I just imagine that it's, it's an exponential feeling that I get even when just flying, like it's such a different perspective. I've even when you're just in an airplane, they're just like, this is amazing. And then you get to like, go break that surface. And you're like, this is unreal. But the reality, I don't I don't know. I don't know if

I would like to think that I would. would like to think that I could stomach it, that I wouldn't get sick, that like, I wouldn't see like my barf floating in front of my face. Yeah, I would love the opportunity. The idea of the opportunity. You're smirking at me the whole time.

Kristy (49:32)
Because I'm thinking of Rocket in one of the, I think it's in Endgame also, and he's like, "Do you want to go to space, puppy?" He's talking to Ant-Man. You want to go to space?

Jon (49:43)
Do you? Would you?

Kristy (49:47)
I think I have a lot of similar thoughts that you do. I I think the idea of space and space exploration is fascinating. We're not to the point where...

Jon (49:59)
We don't have the Starship Enterprise yet.

Kristy (50:01)
No,

I wasn't even thinking about that. I'm thinking about literally thinking about Marvel in that universe and space and. Yeah, I don't know the idea of sitting in a rocket that can just blow up is terrifying to me.

Jon (50:10)
Exploring galaxies and that's what we're

It's true. Yeah, I can see that for you.

Kristy (50:24)
I'm not

afraid of I'm not afraid of flying, but.

Jon (50:26)
Right, Yeah,

it does feel like it could be a little claustrophobic. I know you don't. I'm just adding to it.

Kristy (50:32)
Not that, I don't mean that.

That is definitely true though. The thing that's me, for me, that would be cool is seeing the whatever the glow of the earth. I mean, you're seeing earth from space. You what I mean? You walk yourself into that one. I know. How many people see earth, not from earth, but with their own eyes? I mean, you see pictures of

Jon (50:38)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, not the same. Yeah, think wink, wink. Yeah. I mean, it's just like people take photos of the Grand Canyon or some other like magnificent scene. The picture just, can't, it doesn't justify it. You don't feel that expanse. can't smell it. You can't smell it.

Kristy (51:05)
It's round.

I

am thinking of the Phineas and Ferb episode now where the guy's like walking around and he loses his camera and so Phineas is like take pictures in your mind. He's taking them like in his head, but he's acting like he's taking with a camera.

Jon (51:38)
Like "chink"

Kristy (51:46)
So do you have any final thoughts on the book? Would you recommend this one to our listeners?

Jon (51:51)
have a couple of boxes of tissues with you, but I would absolutely recommend this book. It was wonderful on all the right levels. So unless you're uncomfortable with crying for some weird reason or you're a cyborg, like I absolutely recommend reading this book. It's amazing.

Kristy (52:10)
If you like any of other Taylor Jenkins Reid books, historical fiction books, if you're a fan of like Kristin Hannah's historical fiction, you'll love this one.

Jon (52:21)
Yeah,

it's very character driven, not like, but the plot and storylines within those characters and the dynamics is just so impressive.

Kristy (52:31)
but you have to be okay with ugly crying.

Jon (52:34)
Yes. Don't care what you have to do. If you need to sit in the closet or lock yourself in another room or sit by a pool while on vacation, just be ready for it.

Kristy (52:43)
Yes. Well, we wanted to remind everyone that the next two books in our lineup are Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea by Jessica Guerrier and Not Quite Dead Yet by Holly Jackson. And as always, don't forget that a free way to support our show is by leaving us a review and rating us on Apple Podcasts. Also, if you don't want to us but you have a question or feedback on the show, can email us at booksimakemyhusbandread@gmail.com. We would love to hear from you.

Jon (53:08)
Yeah, and be sure to tell another book lover about the show.

Kristy (53:12)
Well, I guess that's it.

Jon (53:14)
That is it. That is another wreckage in the books.

Kristy (53:18)
Well, who knows? Maybe this will be the one your husband reads. Just get out the tissues and wear waterproof mascara.

Jon (53:26)
Seriously, all the tissues.

you. Okay then, thank you. Bye!

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